38 replies to this topic

[liveinabin]

I'm not generally a great advocate of cel shading per se. But, it's done on a whole new level in Wind Waker - taking it away from the ray-traced geometric jigsaw compositions of Ocarina (ane every other 3D game) and going back to, well, Zeldas 2D roots - every frame is a painting. And, I was glad to see, they didn't use cel-shading at the expense of realism all the way through - the way the sky color changes as night falls or storms approach when you're out at sea is almost hyperreal, as is the cool heat haze from flaming torches - very neat:) Sorry, I'm gushing - there are just very few games that, graphically, astonish me - not in their hi-res complexity but more in their well informed use of observational color and shape - Ridge Racer 4 is the only other I can think of off hand.

[MegaManFan]

For obvious reasons, I didn't see the original post that kick-started this thread (nor do I want to) but I still need to weigh in with the following statement - anybody who wants to liquidate all their GameCube games can gladly sell them to me. It's been my gaming console of choice for a while now, even though PS2 probably has it beat in online gaming and console exclusives. Last night just re-affirmed why - a bunch of friends came over for a "bad movie night" and the funny part was we spent at least half of the time playing GameCube instead. Between Super Monkey Ball, Smash Bros. Melee and Godzilla, I've realized that the Cube is not only the ultimate solo gaming system (for titles like Zelda, Prime and Sunshine) but the ultimate PARTY gaming system; a direct descendant of the great legacy of the Nintendo 64 (which still doesn't get the credit it deserves in that area). If you feel you're "getting bored" with Cube, rent a multi-player game and have some friends over (hopefully with spare controllers if you don't already have four) and you'll change your mind.

Does it have the biggest library? No.
Does it play DVD's and surf the web? No.
Does it offer great fun and the biggest bang for your buck? HELL YES.

And when the GameBoy Player comes out this month, an already good thing is only gonna get better.

[kisrael]

MegaManFan said:

rent a multi-player game and have some friends over (hopefully with spare controllers if you don't already have four) and you'll change your mind.

I think the original poster complained about not having enough older gamer friends in the area. And it is a problem; about half of my gaming buddies are around because I live in Boston where we all went to college; the other half our friends of friends from work. It's too bad there's not a clear place to establish social gaming contacts; I guss that's why network gaming is so popular.

[Nintendo Penguin]

When it comes to pro-cube statements you guys are preeching to the chior! I am now up to almost 60 GameCube Games! Granted, I have not beaten most of them, and certin games get a lot more play time than others. As for the Xbox now being only $179.... I pitty the fools that paid $399 in 2001, also, there is not one game that I want for that damn thing that I can't play on the PC. Why should I pay $179 + the game to play a higher quality version of the same game I can play on the PC?

[ElectricTroy]

Gabriel said:

In addition to not finding the subject matter of Jet Set Radio even remotely to my liking, I absolutely despised the graphics.  I haven't seen Dark Cloud 2, so I can't comment on it.  However, if it uses cel shading, I know that it is not for me. Among the many things that ruined the Robotech video game for me was the cel shading.  Everything looked like heavily outlined cutouts.  

(1) Zelda didn't use black outlines. So that eliminates that complaint.

(2) I think Dark Cloud 2 looks gorgeous: Like an illustrated storybook. You can see photos here: http://www.psxnation...idnumber=000443

(3) Do you dislike cartoons in general (Disney, anime, et cetera)?

[angrybrit]

Funny. There are plenty of games I want for the NGC but I don't have enough $ not time to play them all!

[Gabriel]

ElectricTroy said:

(1) Zelda didn't use black outlines. So that eliminates that complaint.

(2) I think Dark Cloud 2 looks gorgeous: Like an illustrated storybook.  You can see photos here: http://www.psxnation...idnumber=000443

(3) Do you dislike cartoons in general (Disney, anime, et cetera)?

The sole complaint isn't the black outlines. My complaint is about the entire technique. I strongly dislike the way it makes games (and animation it is used in) look.

I like animation just fine. I prefer anime, and within that subset I prefer the examples from the late 80s and early 90s.

That being said, cel shading doesn't look anything like animation. It jumps out at you and says, "I'm half ass light shaded computer graphics! Watch me suck!" And I wince everytime I see the technique used in actual animation.

It's probably bearable for a short sequence, perhaps 1 second, maybe 2 at most. But all that a video game does is put the poor technique in front of you for long sustained periods of time.

[liveinabin]

Gabriel said:

That being said, cel shading doesn't look anything like animation.  It jumps out at you and says, "I'm half ass light shaded computer graphics!  Watch me suck!"  And I wince everytime I see the technique used in actual animation.

It is animation. Bad cel shading does look ropey and does detract from the game - but not all of it. Half-ass light shaded computer graphics? I hate the 3D we've been given up till now - the light-sourced stuck-together polygonal shapes of Tomb Raider, Mario 64, Ocarina - they were pretty enough but they didn't look realistic OR illustrative. At least Wind Waker show which side of the camp it's on - illustration with little or no pretence at realism - Cel shading when done well (and no-one's done it this well) is as close as anyone can get to the hand-drawn style in 3 dimensions.

[ElectricTroy]

Gabriel said:

That being said, cel shading doesn't look anything like animation.  It jumps out at you and says, "I'm half ass light shaded computer graphics!  Watch me suck!"  And I wince everytime I see the technique used in actual animation.

ALL cartoon-style/anime-style animation is cel-shaded. The characters are divided up into cells, and then each cel colored. Every Disney or Japanese anime I've seen uses that technique.

I'm not aware of an alternative technique. Are you? Can you explain how it's done?

[Eduardo]

About the the GC Lineup of games, here's a Quote from Nintendojo:

THE NINTENDO "INDIFFERENCE"

"I knew the GameCube was going to be a technical evolution and not a revolution from the N64, but seeing Mario Sunshine and Zelda basically clone their predecessors just feels like I’ve wasted my money."

http://www.nintendoj....php?1054646745

they even call Zelda as the Wind "Wanker", go figure. hehe

[Paralistalon]

Eduardo said:

About the the GC Lineup of games, here's a Quote from Nintendojo:  

THE NINTENDO "INDIFFERENCE"

"I knew the GameCube was going to be a technical evolution and not a revolution from the N64, but seeing Mario Sunshine and Zelda basically clone their predecessors just feels like I’ve wasted my money."

http://www.nintendoj....php?1054646745

they even call Zelda as the Wind "Wanker", go figure. hehe

My response:

Anyone who says that The Wind Waker was a clone of Ocarina of Time automatically loses all credibility. I can understand if you don't like Wind Waker, but only because it's so different than Ocarina of Time!

Next he complains about Nintendo releasing Super Smash Bros. Melee because it was a sequel. I'm sorry, but Super Smash Bros. created a new genre, do you really expect them to not make, GASP, THE SECOND EVER GAME IN THAT GENRE?! What would you prefer they make instead?! A racing game? A first person shooter? An RPG? Like there aren't a hundered games out in those genres.

Super Smash Bros. Melee was the reason I bought a GameCube. They took an incredible concept and made it atleast twice as good as the original. I know what your real problem is. It's that you can't stand the same characters in a different game. If Nintendo would have changed the Mario sprite in Mario Sunshine to a guy with a crash helmet, but otherwise kept the game exactly the same, I'm sure you wouldn't be complaining.

Next you're upset that Nintendo released a Mario Party game for their new system. Mario Party is the best party/board game series out there so why is it so traumatizing to you that they released A SINGLE game in that genre on the system? It is practically the only game of its kind taking into consideration all the games on all three current-gen consoles. You admited that yes, Nintendo did release Pikmin, but then you go on to say that you're pissed that they're making a sequel. Sir, I think you have unrealistic expectations of Nintendo. Do you really expect them to create a new genre with every game they make? Pikmin and Animal Crossing are two unique games that you can't find on any other console. Do you want Nintendo to stop after the first game? I'm sorry to say that you won't be happy with ANY system out there because the XBOX's most anticipated game is Halo 2, a sequel, just like Grand Theft Auto Vice City was a sequel for the PS2.

I've pretty much finished up with you except that I'd like to address that Resident Evil statement you made. I do agree with you that I don't think anyone in their right mind would buy Resident Evil 2 on GameCube, but you fail to mention the Resident Evil Remake that came out earlier. Now I know most people hate the Resident Evil series with a passion, but the Resident Evil Remake was IMO the best survival-horror game ever made. I already beat the original twice when it debuted on PlayStation, and I still found the remake to be an entirely different game.

If you're still not satisfied with Nintendo's lineup, then go back and play Cubivore, or look forward to Viewtiful Joe, Gitpia, and hopefully one day Doshin the Giant. The reason I like GameCube is because of its unique series. Mario Kart and F-Zero may be sequels, but I know I won't get those kind of games on any other platform. Nintendo pioneered the kart racing game, and I trust that they'll make the best darn kart racer out there.

So I'll end my post now, though I haven't even mentioned Metroid Prime, Luigi's Mansion, Monkey Ball, or Star Wars.

[MegaManFan]

I've come to the conclusion that precisely +because+ people seem to loathe the Mario Party games so much (I hear hardcore gamers bitch endlessly about how "kiddy" and "cutesy" and "simple" and "retarded" they are) I'm going to collect them all out of spite if nothing else. I don't think they can be half as bad as people say. I will never buy Mario eParty though, that just looks like a horrid idea (and I don't have the card reader anyway).

[ElectricTroy]

This review summarizes near-perfectly why I disliked Wind Waker (an no it wasn't the graphics...I thought they were beautiful):

Review by bra1n1ac:

Quote

Gameplay: 5 out of 10  
The gameplay gets the halfway grade, because the gameplay was halfway good. Gone is the endless galloping across fields, the fishing, the hunting and the races we all love. Got is the option of breathing underwater, or even going underwater at all! After all, it's opaque. Going underwater might be dangerous to your eyesight. Virtually all the items used were recycled items and powers from previous games, except for one that was basically just a toned-down hookshot. All-in-all, the gameplay was charming and fun to play in it's own right, but limited in that it lacked either the volume of ''A Link to the Past'' or the innovation of ''Ocarina of Time.'' The only other thing that really limits the gameplay is that the game is simply too easy. Finding items loses all of its mystery, thanks to the multiple maps of everything the game offers you. There are some reasonably-tough puzzles, but no true mind-benders, and the battles are so ridiculously easy, you'll probably come out of them without a scratch! Most of the enemies that can do any damage to you drop more than enough hearts to compensate, which I consider repugnant. Zelda should be a game of adventure through dangerous lands. It should not be that easy, and once you realize that the battles are basically impossible to lose, and the puzzles are designed more to eat up your time thinking than truly challenge you, you realize that this game is not meant to be a challenge, and therefore, all that is left is a feeling as though your time has been wasted.  

Play Time: 5 out of 10  
The play time is ridiculous, primarily because you have to sail across endless oceans for most of it. It took me a week and a half to figure the whole thing out, however most of that time was spent either sailing, or fighting battles I could not possibly lose if I tried. I admired the difficulty of Majora's Mask, but this game, though reasonably long, fills that length with virtually nothing, making it feel as though the experience is being dragged out. I think that was rather poor.  

Replayability: 3 out of 10  
The replay value exists only because you have to play the game twice to get all the items. No joke! All I know is that when I finished the game, I was left with a bad taste in my mouth, and if the story isn't going to change the next time I play it, I have no intention of playing it again. Granted, with single ending RPGS, the beating of a game usually means it's death, but this game took that to a whole new level.  

Story Concept: 2 out of 10  
A very confusing and overall poor concept. The first sequel in Zelda history, and as we all know, sequels are rarely better than the preceding media. As the story starts out, Ganon escaped from his prison and then Hyrule disappeared. It seems as though Ganon somehow got out of Hyrule and escaped to this new world that Link is in. This world basically consists of several miles of water with about 49 tiny islands scattered through it. In essence, it's a water world. Now, I'm a bigger fan of water and sea life than most people, but the abundance of water in this game depressed even me, especially since the graphics made it look more like milk, you never got to see any non-monster sea life, and you couldn't go underwater at all, which was my favorite part of Ocarina of Time. Ganon still has the Triforce of Power, though, so in order to protect himself, Link must assemble the Triforce of Courage and find the Master Sword to fight Ganon with. That's all good, but Link is not fighting to save Hyrule anymore. He is fighting Ganon to keep him out of... wherever this drenched and dismal place is. Even the ending is depressing. Link will never see Hyrule again and the sea is all that's left. What a depression pill. At the end, you get the option to play again with some differences, but I'm not going through that stupid story again.

THIS SECTION SUMMARIZES MY FEELINGS (or lack thereof) PERFECTLY:

Story Presentation: 3 out of 10
Remember that one scene in Ocarina of Time, just after you beat the first dungeon, where you meet Saria on the bridge? Saria talks to you about your future, and she gives you her ocarina to remember her by. Well, its close, but I think there might have been a little more emotion in that scene than there was in this entire game. No happiness was ever felt, no sadness ever appreciated, and no anger truly feared.

OVERALL: 3 out of 10.
near the end of the game, the former king of Hyrule said something that seemed to come right from the mouth of Miyamoto himself. ''This is the only world your ancestors were able to leave you. Please forgive us.''

[ElectricTroy]

Gabriel said:

That being said, cel shading doesn't look anything like animation.  It jumps out at you and says, "I'm half ass light shaded computer graphics!  Watch me suck!"  And I wince everytime I see the technique used in actual animation.

ALL cartoon-style/anime-style animation is cel-shaded. The characters are divided up into cells, and then each cel colored. Every Disney or Japanese anime I've seen uses that technique.

I'm not aware of an alternative technique. Are you? Can you explain how it's done?