121 replies to this topic

[JB]

Sharky said:

JB said:

I thought Dark Forces used it's own engine.
Im pretty sure it was more advanced than either Doom or Build.

Anyways... Heretic was Doom-based, to add a game.

Sorry your probably right, but its plays much like a DOOM anyway, never tried making my own maps for Dark Forces.

I just know it seems to be a lot less restrictive then even BUILD was.
Things like being able to shoot enemies off one floor through a window from another, which as I understand it isn't possible in Doom or Build engine games(if I recall, Doom only believes in one floor and Build will only accept multiple floors as long as you can never see into a floor other than the one you're on).

From some old Geocities site...
"Dark Forces’ Jedi Engine is a new, proprietary system developed internally by LucasArts."

http://www.geocities...6462/dark1.html

From the same site...
"And most important of all, this actions runs very fast and smoothly at a brisk 30 frames per second."
Heehee.
My how times change.




And since I inherently distrust anything on Geocities...
http://www.cnspace.n...darkforces.html
Confirmation.

"Many believe that it is merely another DOOM clone; at one time it was even rumored that Dark Forces used code from DOOM, although this rumor proved to be groundless."

"While Dark Forces' 3D engine, called the Jedi engine, is insignificant in comparison to those of the true-3D games made now, it is superior to those of many of the other games of its era."

Quote

And thanks I forgot all about Heretic, that was like Hexen if I remember.

Hexen was the sequel to Heretic.

Quote

Ive also got DUKE NECLEAR WINTER, another duke nukem based, but the damn is stuck in the middle of an old backup cartridge.  

Wasn't that an expansion pack?



Oh, I found a list of engines and games on them...
http://doomencyclo.f...ide_moteurs.htm

[Sharky]

JB said:

Things like being able to shoot enemies off one floor through a window from another, which as I understand it isn't possible in Doom or Build engine games(if I recall, Doom only believes in one floor and Build will only accept multiple floors as long as you can never see into a floor other than the one you're on).  

That was achieved by overlaying sectors in maps which I found to complicated to try often. But one trick is to create multipe floors or a tower by using flat fixed-positioned solid sprites as the floor above the otherone. Shadow Warrior and Reckneck Rampage is two clever examples that pushes that Build engine to its limits!

JB said:

Hexen was the sequel to Heretic.

Hmm you sure, cause ive got Hexen 2 which uses the Quake engine thanks for your links I now know what its used, and theres also a Heretic 2 out as well.



And im surprised that it states Half-Life used the Quake 1 engine. :!:
Its looks a lot more advanced than Quake 1.

Quote

Quake Engine (1996) - Id Software -  

CIA Operative Solo Missions
Golgotha *
Gunman Chronicles
Half-Life
Hexen 2
Laser Arena
Quake

[Jasoco]

As for ROTT being DOOM based, I heard it was just a very advanced Wolfenstein type engine. Seeing as you never had angled walls. Only right angles at the same size and length.

On the subject of Hexen being a Heretic sequel. I heard that back in the day, but it was only a rumor. I don't think it really was. If only because of the individual sequels they each had.

Don't forget the Duke Nukem 3D: Duke it out in DC expansion and the Atomic Edition.

_________________

I used to be big in DOOM and Duke editing in the day. Sometimes I wish I could go back and do it all again.

I was never very creative, starting an idea then quickly tiring of it and having dozens of unfinished levels littering my HD, except for ONE map, which I first built in DOOM. It consisted of a single huge building which I called UAC Headquarters.

The thing had a lobby, offices, bathrooms, a giant garage (Full of boxes) with big door and long runway, a cafeteria with stage (With three changeable backdrops and an opening curtain and a pedestal.) and kitchen all modeled after the one in my school, and later apartments in the back and sewers.

Then I ported it to DOOM 2 and later started really hacking the WAD and added graphics to go with the theme. I later printed the map out but have since lost the paper.

Then later, I got into Duke editing. I was so happy with the Build engine and the 3D walkthrough. I ported the level to Duke (Using a WAD2DUKE conversion utility.) and fixed it up. I even changed it from UAC HQ to EDF HQ. Then I continued changing and changing it by adding things I couldn't do with DOOM, like a generator room with spinning generator, vents in the ceiling leading to other rooms, sewers that you could go under water in, better bathrooms (With working toilets, but no mirrors as the darn engine required there be a huge sector behind the mirror and since the building was cramped and the mirrors were on opposite sides of the wall, it wouldn't work.), destroyable walls and scenery, and my favorite, forcefields for blocking off certain hallways without a pass key. Stuff you simply couldn't do in DOOM.

I since have lost both versions. The PC HD it was on has long been dead as I was stupid in those days and never thought to use a floppy to back it up. But I have part of the layout in my head and have already drawn out much of it on paper for safe keeping. I plan to maybe get it working again on some form of engine one day. Maybe if someone kindly ports the Duke 3d Build engine like they promised they would, I'll be back in the saddle again.

[Sharky]

Jasoco said:

As for ROTT being DOOM based, I heard it was just a very advanced Wolfenstein type engine. Seeing as you never had angled walls. Only right angles at the same size and length.

On the subject of Hexen being a Heretic sequel. I heard that back in the day, but it was only a rumor. I don't think it really was. If only because of the individual sequels they each had.

Don't forget the Duke Nukem 3D: Duke it out in DC expansion and the Atomic Edition.

_________________

I used to be big in DOOM and Duke editing in the day. Sometimes I wish I could go back and do it all again.

I was never very creative, starting an idea then quickly tiring of it and having dozens of unfinished levels littering my HD, except for ONE map, which I first built in DOOM. It consisted of a single huge building which I called UAC Headquarters.

The thing had a lobby, offices, bathrooms, a giant garage (Full of boxes) with big door and long runway, a cafeteria with stage (With three changeable backdrops and an opening curtain and a pedestal.) and kitchen all modeled after the one in my school, and later apartments in the back and sewers.

Then I ported it to DOOM 2 and later started really hacking the WAD and added graphics to go with the theme. I later printed the map out but have since lost the paper.

Then later, I got into Duke editing. I was so happy with the Build engine and the 3D walkthrough. I ported the level to Duke (Using a WAD2DUKE conversion utility.) and fixed it up. I even changed it from UAC HQ to EDF HQ. Then I continued changing and changing it by adding things I couldn't do with DOOM, like a generator room with spinning generator, vents in the ceiling leading to other rooms, sewers that you could go under water in, better bathrooms (With working toilets, but no mirrors as the darn engine required there be a huge sector behind the mirror and since the building was cramped and the mirrors were on opposite sides of the wall, it wouldn't work.), destroyable walls and scenery, and my favorite, forcefields for blocking off certain hallways without a pass key. Stuff you simply couldn't do in DOOM.

I since have lost both versions. The PC HD it was on has long been dead as I was stupid in those days and never thought to use a floppy to back it up. But I have part of the layout in my head and have already drawn out much of it on paper for safe keeping. I plan to maybe get it working again on some form of engine one day. Maybe if someone kindly ports the Duke 3d Build engine like they promised they would, I'll be back in the saddle again.

Wow you seem even more advanced than me, is there anything you never been able to work-out to do before ? :wink:

I never created DOOM Maps (Glad i didnt if you say there wasnt a 3D WALKTHUR, it would of been a nitemare to design)

But I was wrapped when I workout how to use Ken's Silvermans Duke Build Engine. First I began changing the original Duke Nukem Maps (Actually
it was Shadow Warrior, then later designed Duke Nukem maps.

I used to love creating huge cities with roads and successfully created moving traffic aswell (cars werent very intelligent though), also created illusions of wind (animating trees), and rain (using sprites for rain drops),
even an out-of-control police car with sirens blazing.
Even created a successful Stadium with the illusion of surronded by 100,000 people (and not kidding - it looks real as u can think).

Even learn how to edit the .CON Files correctly and created my own actors and some were football players for the stadium.

Best map ive ever created was a moving train (got the idea from Blood from level 2) accept mine was even more realistic.

Funny enough I never ever finished a map, but still my 200 or so unfinished maps stored on a 60MB Cartridge Tape which I can't revive now, and i wanna put them all online oneday, if I ever see my masterpieces again.

Today I use UnrealEd and map-making has never been easier, and I love the way creating tall castles, towers is more possible than ever, and also automatically does the lighting for you, so you save lots of time.

Havent tried about the Serious Sam build engine much, but ive still got so much to learn on UnrealEd first. Nice if I ever learn to create my own models/actors though.

[Jasoco]

Sharky said:

Wow you seem even more advanced than me, is there anything you never been able to work-out to do before ?  :wink:  

I never created DOOM Maps (Glad i didnt if you say there wasnt a 3D WALKTHUR, it would of been a nitemare to design)

Thanks for the compliment.

As for DOOM Editing. Not ALL editors had a walk through, but the really GOOD editor was WinDEU, that didn't have one. Some did have a 3D wireframe view which was better than nothing. And once you got used to the feel of the simplistic DOOM engine Map files, it was easy to envision it in your head.

Actually, it wasn't too much easier to edit the map in Build. The only actual advantage being more advanced texturing which was the only real pain in DOOM editing.

I used um.. damn.. I forgot the name of the app, but it allowed me to change sprites, textures, palettes and sounds and music which was the best part. If I had kept going, I could have made a Total Conversion (TC). They're entirely new games with everything replaced.

I downloaded a TC one day called Aliens TC. It replaced an entire episode of DOOM 1 with this REALLY super edited game that pulled off stuff I never thought imaginable. They actually made Face Huggers hatch out of the egg, then walk along the ceiling and jump down on your face. (Funny thing is they used the Imp's ID in the game to make them.)

Another great TC I've seen are the Wolfenstein TC's that are floating around. Look for them. They're really cool.

I would have loved to make a TC. It was the next best thing to licensing the engine yourself. Except you are stuck with whatever features the DOOM engine gave you. Though, with some creative use of DeHacked, you could make the engine tons better. Like, instead of beating the last level by shooting the head of John Romero, place that sprite frame at the end of the CyberDemon's death animation, pump up his hit points, change the graphics and make a super hard walking target to beat the game.

I had dreamed of making an entirely unique game, especially after seeing the effects id was able to pull off in TNT and Plutonia (Final DOOM) which was the exact same engine. But they figured out how to make bulletproof windows, see through doors and bridges that weren't actually there. (Invisible bridges.. sweet! I was impressed the first time I saw this.)

One of the coolest secret levels was CyberCage. It had about 10 Cyber Demons all caged and frozen in time (With invisible doors between you and them, so they couldn't see or hear you.) and as you progressed, a door would open and next time you passed through the courtyard, the newly awakened CD would be on you like fish on jelly.

I tell ya, id didn't find the games REAL limits until its End of Life. (Just like consoles.) If you haven't bought it or tried it or pirated it, get it. Final DOOM is a must for checking out some of id's greatest work. Even if it is a little outdated and Strife puts it to shame anyway.

[Dreaming of the good old days...]

[Sharky]

Jasoco said:

I used um.. damn.. I forgot the name of the app, but it allowed me to change sprites, textures, palettes and sounds and music which was the best part. If I had kept going, I could have made a Total Conversion (TC). They're entirely new games with everything replaced.

I used EDITART to change sprites/textures, never touch the palettes, and sounds and music were a piece of cake, just VOC and MID Files.


Personality I would think anything is possible with at least the Duke Engine,
just the frame-rate preventing me from putting too much Action in one area at a time. I tried never to use sprites for decorations, I found way to build almost anything out of blocks with textures.

I attempted to a complete new game from Duke Nukem (by changing everything), even changed Duke's action graphics (replace Pipebomb with a Football for a stadium i created! )
Problem was DOS and the graphics was becoming out-of-date before I was ever half-finished.

[Ze_ro]

Sharky said:

And thanks I forgot all about Heretic, that was like Hexen if I remember.

Hexen was sort of a sequel to Heretic... Hexen had quite a bit of extras in it that made it quite a bit more advanced though. Heretic was straight on top of the Doom engine, but Hexen added things like multiple classes with different weapons (Fighter, Wizard, and Cleric), jumping, up/down looking, hub levels (basically a branch point that you could come back too... I don't remember any other game having these until Quake 2 came out), and probably a bunch of other stuff that I'm forgetting. It's still based off of the Doom engine, but they definitely improved it.

Oh wait, now that I think about it, Heretic did add powerup weapons that you could hold onto and use whenever you wanted (Tome of Power, Wings of Wrath, etc)... Hexen had these too, but I think they had more advanced effects like the smoke bombs and such.

--Zero

[Jasoco]

Hexen also let you be one of three different characters each with different abilities and weapons. Suh-weet.

At the time, it had some of the coolest effects. Like that doorway in the fiery black level that opened like a zipper. And just the thought of swinging and sliding doors got me all hot and bothered. I had so wanted to get into Hexen editing, but the engine was too damned hard to understand how to make certain things work. And the limited texture selection wasn't good for what I wanted to make.

One of my favorite parts was when that bridge crumbles and you have to make it across before it collapses underneath you. I rarely made it.

Oh, and the best was the Clock level where stuff would happen at different times. I saw a user-made level that made very cool use of this effect.

I take that back. My absolute FAVORITE was the final level (The Crucible) with the wavy bridge and the cool music. The wavy bridge was an AWESOME effect.

Oh, and actually Hexen WAS originally a part of Heretic. Well, a Sequel. I know because I just remembered that the bosses at the ends of both games were related. There were three in all. Heretic had one and Hexen had another. I forget where the third appears.

[Jasoco]

Oh.. ok, after some research, I've found out how it goes...

Heretic was first. The main character was an Elf. He has to fight a bad guy who rides around on a Serpent.


In another dimension named Chronos about a thousand years later, three warriors get to take on the second Serpent Rider named Korax...


Then, later on down the road, in Hexen II, the main character (Which can be one of 4 different classes. 5 in the expansion pack.) travels to Thyrion to take on the bad guy, Eidolon, who um.. uh.. I dunno what he looks like.

Either way, Heretic, Hexen and Hexen II were three parts of a single story. Heretic II was just a story about your character who has to figure out why his people are dying... blah blah blah.. Not the same storyline. Just an extension completely separate from it.

----------------------

And some stuff about Rise of the Triad I found in my research. First of all, ROTT was originally supposed to be an expansion pack for, get this, Wolfenstein 3D!


It was to be 4 separate packs that you would collect. But a lot changed before then.

Another good link: http://www.classicga....com/rott/hell/

Quote

The ROTT engine initially started out as the Wolf3D engine. The Wolf3D engine was a REAL mode engine rather than a PROTECTED mode engine like Doom. My first task was to rewrite the engine so that it was a PROTECTED mode engine. Once this was done, ROTT could take advantage of linear memory and access to high memory without using EMS or XMS (remember those?) Wolf3D also generated all the code necessary in memory to scale a 64 high textured line from 1 pixel to the maximum scaled size which was about 300-400. This took up a bit of memory, and while it was an amazing innovation for 286's (it allowed WOLF3D to be as fast as it was) it didn't make a lot of sense for the 486. I took that stuff out and then had to convert the renderer from 286 assembly to protected mode assembly. John Carmack gave me a little piece of code which turned out to be the assembly inner loop for Doom. ROTT, it turns out uses the same scaling routines as found in Doom (who would have thought). Apogee also signed a deal with id that would allow us to put floor and ceiling code in ROTT. Once this was done the game really took on a whole new look.  

The conversion from REAL mode to PROTECTED mode required a complete rewrite of almost every subsystem in Wolf3D which in the end made the ROTT engine VERY different from the Wolf3D engine. One of the subsystems which had to be re-written was the sound system. That is where Jim Dose came in. He wrote an amazing sound system outside of Apogee/3D Realms that would later be used in all of Apogee's products. Once he was near completion he was brought on to the ROTT team and helped finish up the game (he created RANDROTT among other things).  




After the initial hard stuff was completed the ROTT engine turned more and more into a bastard child as features were added like room over room and transparency which were clearly never intended for an engine like ROTT's. The finished product is by no means an engineering marvel but had a certain charm to it.




Here are some of the things that are in the ROTT engine:
• Multi level orthogonally based levels.  
• Room over room (sort of).  
• Transparency.  
• Textured Floors and Ceilings.  
• Dynamic Lighting.  
• FLIC support (although we never had any in the game).  
• CINEMATIC engine (also never used. The ending sequence is scripted but doesn't utilize the cool shit developed before hand).  
• 11 player network support.  
• Masked Walls (Textures with holes in them).  
• Moving Walls.  
• Stairs (sort of).

[JB]

[quote=Sharky][quote=JB]
Things like being able to shoot enemies off one floor through a window from another, which as I understand it isn't possible in Doom or Build engine games(if I recall, Doom only believes in one floor and Build will only accept multiple floors as long as you can never see into a floor other than the one you're on).
[/quote]

That was achieved by overlaying sectors in maps which I found to complicated to try often. But one trick is to create multipe floors or a tower by using flat fixed-positioned solid sprites as the floor above the otherone. Shadow Warrior and Reckneck Rampage is two clever examples that pushes that Build engine to its limits!
[/quote]
Fascinating.


[quote=JB]Hexen was the sequel to Heretic. [/quote]

Hmm you sure, cause ive got Hexen 2 which uses the Quake engine thanks for your links I now know what its used, and theres also a Heretic 2 out as well.

[/quote]
Yes. The series is a tad messy.

Heretic was made, then Hexen, which was related sotrywise but in a diffrent universe.
Then Hexen 2 was made, in a third universe if I recall, and Heretic 2, which was a direct sequel to Heretic 1, staring the same character.


[quote]And im surprised that it states Half-Life used the Quake 1 engine. :!:
Its looks a lot more advanced than Quake 1.

[quote]
Quake Engine (1996) - Id Software -

CIA Operative Solo Missions
Golgotha *
Gunman Chronicles
Half-Life
Hexen 2
Laser Arena
Quake
[/quote] [/quote]
Hmmm...

Well, it COULD he a very heavily modified Quake engine.
More new code than Id source, but still technically Quake-based.

[Avid Fan]

Ah my favorite games for my favorite platform and era of games

The 7th Guest
The 11th Hour (not nearly as good as 7th Guest but worth a mention)
Tie Fighter Cd-rom
Leisure Suit Larry 1 VGA
Leisure Suit Larry 6
Cyberwar
Every Lucasarts adventure title made before 1996

[pseudonymr]

i'm not sure about this one but chip's challenge was one of my favorite computer games.

[Ze_ro]

Jasoco said:

Heretic was first. The main character was an Elf. He has to fight a bad guy who rides around on a Serpent.

In another dimension named Chronos about a thousand years later, three warriors get to take on the second Serpent Rider named Korax...

Straight out of the manual for Hexen:

The elders tell of the adventures of a heroic Sidhe elf who challenged the forces of D'Sparil, the weakest of the three dimension-travelling Serpent Riders. His victory was hardly insignificant, but while he battled D'Sparil, the other two Serpent Riders were far from idle. They were hard at work sowing the seeds of destruction in several other dimensions. One such dimension is Cronos, the world of Hexen: a human world, but one where the forces of magic are both stronger and more strictly controlled than those of the Elven world.

It goes on to explain how the powers of Cronos are divided between the Legion, the Arcanum and the Church, and how the leaders of these three groups (Zedek, Menelkir, and Traductus respectively) were the first to fall under the influence of Korax, the second Serpent Rider. One follower of each group has remained unaffected by Korax's power, and they each vow to destroy the three leaders as well as Korax.

Supposedly, Korax is only the second most powerful Serpent Rider... does Hexen II include the third Serpent Rider?

Quote

And some stuff about Rise of the Triad I found in my research. First of all, ROTT was originally supposed to be an expansion pack for, get this, Wolfenstein 3D!

Wow, that's weird... I knew ROTT was based on the Wolf3D engine (and in fact, that it's the most advanced (and last) incarnation of the engine, which actually has a history that extends long before Wolf3D used it), but I had no idea that it was originally going to be an expansion. I wonder if the storyline was still the same back then, because ROTT's story doesn't seem to relate at all to Wolf3D.

It's funny that so many people think ROTT was based on Doom... I guess that goes to show how much they actually extended the Wolf3D engine. It's really quite an impressive game considering. I might be wrong, but I think it was also the first of the FPS games to include "gibs" (the meaty bits that would fly when you completely blew an enemy apart... you would often see an eyeball fly past your head when this happened). Doom didn't really even have these (although there was a second death animation for when you REALLY smashed a demon hard).

--Zero

[Jasoco]

Ze_ro said:

Supposedly, Korax is only the second most powerful Serpent Rider... does Hexen II include the third Serpent Rider?

Yes. He is the most powerful one. And it is the final chapter of the Serpent Rider um.. "Trilogy" I guess you could call it.

[Sharky]

Just showing off my new map.

Only half-finished yet, a fews bugs around but it simulates quite well actually.

Attached Thumbnails

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[vanman]

uh, dont laugh, but stunt island and cylendrix are pretty cool.

[AtariDude]

Commander Keen for DOS. I still like to play that game even today. If you like shooters, then Doom or Duke Nukem 3D.

Another cool game that no one seems to have mentioned yet is Jazz Jackrabbit. I really liked that game and the small Christmas edition was fun too.

There are also games from Apogee like Hocus Pokus, Halloween Harry, and Cosmo that are fun too.

[bergbros]

My 2 cents: The original System Shock and X-Com. Probably the two best stories in gaming history. X-Com took a great concept and executed it flawlessly. Its got everything except the graphics: resource management, squad turn based combat, suspense. Its gameplay is addicting now as it was when it first came out.

I never finished System Shock. I could never defeat Shodan. Someone give me a hand here. Is it more than just firing away at the overgrown carrot at the end? Still, the ride getting there is a rush. The game still gives me the creeps and it was one of the first games on the computer that actually scared me out of my seat. I don't have a computer that has enough power to play System Shock 2 (!!!) but if I did, that would be the game I would pick up.

[Jasoco]

Keen 4: Goodbye Galaxy is a great game. I used to play for hours and finally beat it one day. Well, the shareware episode.

Dopefish Lives!

[tantone56]

I remember the earliest violent game I was turned on to was the all time classic Wolfenstein. wow that was a great game for its time. though when I play it now I get really tired of staring at the same friggin breaks for hours on end.

[JB]

tantone56 said:

I remember the earliest violent game I was turned on to was the all time classic Wolfenstein. wow that was a great game for its time. though when I play it now I get really tired of staring at the same friggin breaks for hours on end.

I think it was...
Does RoadBlasters count?

[Sharky]

Once thing I cant stand about the DOOM and Doom-engine games, is the ablity not to be able to look up-and-down.

so ROTT couldnt be a DOOM/Based game as I think you can look up and down in ROTT.

[JB]

Sharky said:

Once thing I cant stand about the DOOM and Doom-engine games, is the ablity not to be able to look up-and-down.

so ROTT couldnt be a DOOM/Based game as I think you can look up and down in ROTT.

But Wolfenstien 3D is acceptable?

And didn't the ability to look up and down get added to Heretic and Hexen, which were both Doom-engine games?

[Jasoco]

JB said:

Sharky said:

Once thing I cant stand about the DOOM and Doom-engine games, is the ablity not to be able to look up-and-down.

so ROTT couldnt be a DOOM/Based game as I think you can look up and down in ROTT.

But Wolfenstien 3D is acceptable?

And didn't the ability to look up and down get added to Heretic and Hexen, which were both Doom-engine games?

Exactly. Just because you can look up and down doesn't mean it's not a DOOM engine. You could look up and down in Strife too.

DOOM was first so they didn't think to add the Look Up/Down feature.

And I already pointed out ROTT isn't DOOM based anyway, it's Wolf based. Highly Wolf based. So highly based that it was actually rewritten so it's not really the same code. (Silly DOS memory limits and crap like that. Something about XMS and EMS mode and having to change the app to run in the other or something. It's on that link I posted. Look it up.)

[AtariDude]

Jasoco said:

Keen 4: Goodbye Galaxy is a great game. I used to play for hours and finally beat it one day. Well, the shareware episode.

Dopefish Lives!

One of my all time favorites along with Aliens Ate My Babysitter. I would have liked if they had released the Christmas Edition back in 1992 but it was not to be.