[TROGDOR]

We need a blog of just the facts regarding Infogrames. No opinions, just verified facts about what has occurred. I've started this as a separate thread, because the "So what happened" thread is mostly opinions, and is getting too long to read from start to finish.

Here's all I know about Infogrames actions at this point:

- 4 Homebrew games were removed from the Atari age store. The games were:

Castle Crisis
Mondo Pong
JoustPong
Double Breakout

- Several reproductions based on Atari titles (such as Saboteur), and most of the hacks based on games from Atari were also removed from the store.

- A few buttons were removed from the Atariage website.

- atarilabs.com got a C&D three years ago. They had to surrender their logo and web domain to Infogrames.

- Dan Iacovelli got some grief from Infogrames regarding fest issues on cafepress.com.

- sku_u's wife got a threatening email for using pixellated graphics in the banner promoting their gaming night. It did not contain any Atari logos. Infogrames was unhappy over the use of a Berzerk robot and the Adventure yellow block.

The source for these facts is the "So what happened?" thread. The unanswered questions are:

- What is the specific list of reproductions that were removed?
- What is the specific list of hacks that were removed?
- Can Al offer a description of the buttons that were removed, so we can get some understanding as to why they were removed?
- Is Al allowed to discuss the terms/justifications of the removals? If not, is Al at least allowed to state that he is not allowed to discuss the terms/justifications of the removals?
- Dan Iacovelli, can you provide more details about your incident? Did you get a C&D letter, and can you post it?
- sku_u, can you post the C&D letter you got? How was the incident resolved?

Regarding atarilabs.com:

The atarilabs.com site is still there, so the above fact is wrong. The atarilabs homepage has a tiny text message that says "Atarilabs is not affiliated with Infogrames in any way. Their lawyers don't send us nasty letters either. They are actually very polite."

Here is a link to the original atarilabs.com letter from Infogrames. It really isn't a C&D letter, because it doesn't contain any threats from Infogrames.

http://atarilabs.com/senta.htm

There is a link on that page to see Lawrence Wright's reply.

To Infogrames credit, it is reasonably polite, and does grant the site permission to use Atari logos for non-commercial purposes. The problem that us homebrewers are going to face is that selling cartriges is inherently commercial, and that's probably why we're a target.

atarilabs.com never lost their site, and did not have to surrender their domain name. Here's the last news article I found on the subject, from the link:

http://www.gamelord....s/april2002.htm

Quote

Infogrames Shuts Down AtariLabs
friday, april 19, 2002
It was just over a year ago, that Infogrames sent the infamous letter to atarilabs.com requesting that the "cybersquatting" webmaster turn over the Domain Name. Infogrames actually backed down once they realized it was a legitimate website once world reknowned for it's retro gaming information. Infogrames has now pulled the plug on the AtariLabs group and can safely say that they don't need the Domain anymore. In related news, Andre Salcedo left SOE yesterday.

This is exactly why we need to get our facts straight. Based on this information, I was too hasty in my judgement of Infogrames.

If you have an opinion about Infogrames, please post it in the "So what happened?" thread. I want to keep this thread short, so people can figure out what's really going on without having to filter through hundreds of posts. If you have new factual info, or a clarification of a fact, please post it here.

Thanks in advance for any info,

TROGDOR

[Atari Charles]

Dear Sir or Madam,

We are Infogrames.

Lower your server and surrender your site. You will turn it's domain name over to us immediately. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Atari, all related software and hardware, all intellectual copyrights for games past , present and future, and all hacks of existing Atari games are owned by Infogrames.

All Atari programmers are now the possession of Infogrames. At this moment Howard Scott Warshaw is being assimilated into one of us. He will continue as with all Atari programers to continue to make games only for us.

Your website will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.

Infogrames: The French Version of Microsoft.

[MegaManFan]

http://www.atariage....58184&start=273

[Beer Monkey]

Quote

Dear Sir or Madam,  

We are Infogrames.  

Lower your server and surrender your site. You will turn it's domain name over to us immediately. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Atari, all related software and hardware, all intellectual copyrights for games past , present and future, and all hacks of existing Atari games are owned by Infogrames.  

All Atari programmers are now the possession of Infogrames. At this moment Howard Scott Warshaw is being assimilated into one of us. He will continue as with all Atari programers to continue to make games only for us.  

Your website will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.  

Infogrames: The French Version of Microsoft.

So much for having a thread of facts, not opinions.

[Kepone]

Blame atari_charles for wrecking this thread.

Seriously, it wouldn't hurt to have a thread of actual Facts, in which Trogdor had the right idea.

As for Atari_Charles....

[Dan Iacovelli]

A thing about my situation with infograms:
even though it seemed have got solved after I e-maile them(both cafepress.com and infograms) explaining how I had no trouble
with atari corp. and atari/hasbro. I haven't heard back from them
about the situation or why they decided to let it go.
I'm just glad that it some how got worked out.

[Atari Charles]

Serious Information and Links:

http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5672


"Infogrames vs. Homebrew Atari Games

The four games Infrogrames asked AtariAge to remove are clear derivatives of old Atari titles. It's not clear that anyone would legitimately confuse them with the official Atari versions, but I can understand why a copyright or trademark holder would be leery about allowing distribution of something so close to an existing product.


Reproductions are a similar situation. If there's code or artwork involved, Infogrames has a strong position to ask people not to distribute these products.


Finally, distributing ROM hacks -- especially hacks on cartridges -- which change the sprites, text, or levels of an existing ROM is hard to justify. Distributing the hacks themselves as patches is probably alright, but bundling the hack with the ROM and distributing a modified version of the original ROM seems like a clear copyright infringement.


Should Infogrames have looked the other way? Perhaps. Is the company well within its legal rights to ask that even Atari's most devoted fans respect its copyrights and tradeworks? I think so.


Moral rights may come into play, too. In a different genre, science fiction, a similar debate has flared from time to time. Recently, the owner of Roger Zelazny's estate commissioned three prequels to his popular Amber series. This goes against stated wishes of Zelazny himself, but the executor of his estate does have the legal right to do so.


(Reportedly, Neil Gaiman once asked Zelazny for permission to set a story in the Amber universe. Zelazny declined. I wish he'd given permission and suspect that Gaiman also does, but I respect Gaiman for both asking and honoring the decision.)


Could Infogrames try to stop all homebrew development and distribution? Possibly. Would the company have any legal standing? I can't say for sure, but I find it unlikely.


How could this be a good thing for homebrew game development? Perhaps it will encourage developers to come up with their own ideas, instead of creating clone after clone. If that happens -- if the homebrew community demonstrates that it's willing to keep old consoles and platforms alive long past the point of mass-market commercial viability -- perhaps the publishers will be willing to make their development kits, hardware documentation, and even some source code public more often.


At least, homebrew communities that show more respect for copyrights and trademarks will have a better moral ground from which to make that case.

chromatic is the technical editor of the O'Reilly Network. "


Atari Charles says:

The link below discusses how Infogrames has bought out another company, so infact my Borg annalogy is quite true. In Microsoft fashion, don't beat yuor competition, just buy them out.

http://www.psxextrem....asp?newID=1158


Infogrames buys Eden Studios

Infogrames announced today that they have officially purchased French developer, Eden Studios, the company currently in the process of completing V-Rally 3 for the Playstation 2. Infogrames had already held a 19.8 percent stake in Eden Studios, so the transition was of little surprise. The French developer is also working on original games for the Xbox and Gamecube, which will be released in 2003 and 2004. Eden Studios joins the other 11 Infogrames Entertainment studios operating worldwide, including Reflections (creator of the Driver series and the forthcoming Stuntman) and Microprose (Grand Prix 4) in the UK, Paradigm (MX Rider, Spy Hunter) and Humongous (Backyard series, Pajama Sam) in the United States, and Melbourne House (Le Mans, Space Race) in Australia.

"Eden Studios is one of the largest international development studios," stated Infogrames Entertainment chairman Bruno Bonnell. "We take great pride in the fact that its founders chose to continue their company's growth as part of our group. The alliance between Eden and Infogrames is a perfect example of combining creative talent with publishing power."

"I am at once honored by the Infogrames management's confidence in Eden and delighted to pursue our four-year relationship with Infogrames Entertainment," said Stéphane Baudet, Eden Studio's founder and chief executive. "The merger will enable Eden to continue growing, while at the same time making it possible for us to focus on the creative side of our business and to maintain and improve the quality and innovative features that have ensured the success of our games."

[Atari Charles]

Infrogames buys out Games.com

52 Employees laid off.

Infogrames distributes games for all major consoles. Hmmm. Again my borg analogy stands up. Just because I am comical, doesn't mean the information is useless. There is seriousness in the comedy I write.

Seems like Infogrames has the buying bug lately.

http://boston.intern...icle.php/580691

boston.internet.com

February 6, 2001
No Joke -- Games.com Workers Gone
By Gavin McCormick
Not two weeks after being acquired by a French company, and just two months after launching the games portal Games.com, the Beverly, Mass., interactive and online divisions formerly owned by Hasbro Interactive have laid off 52 employees.

Infogrames Entertainment of France, which on Jan. 29 completed its $100 million acquisition of the interactive division of Providence, R.I., toy company Hasbro Inc., last week fired 45 of 188 workers in the Beverly interactive unit.

In addition, Infogrames let go of 37 employees from Games.com, an online portal where members can play Hasbro games like Scrabble, Monopoly, Clue, Risk and Boggle. Seven of the released workers were based in Beverly, while 30 worked in a development office in Alameda, Calif., which Infogrames closed.

Infogrames is apparently consolidating work formerly done in Beverly in its New York office, the headquarters for the French company's North American operations (Quote, Chart).

Infogrames and Games.com spokespeople failed to respond to phone calls today seeking comment.

Hasbro had a heap of trouble getting Games.com off the ground, with a launch orginally planned for last summer delayed, ultimately, six months, until December.

By that time, with more than $250 million invested in the interactive and online divisions, Hasbro had already pulled the plug on both. For $95 million in stock and $5 million in cash, it sold all interactive division assets, including Atari and MicroProse; sold Games.com; and signed a long-term licensing deal giving Infogrames rights to develop interactive games based on current and future Hasbro titles.

Infogrames publishes and distributes video games for all major consoles, including the titles Alone In The Dark, Driver, Deer Hunter, Roller Coaster Tycoon, Test Drive and Unreal. It also has a children's software division (Humongous Entertainment) and a Macintosh publishing label for Mac entertainment software.

In midday trading Tuesday IFGM was down 0.25, or 3 percent, at 8.5, while on the Paris Bourse Infogrames was up almost 1 percent, at 139.72 francs (about $19.73).

[Atari Charles]

Lordy lordy, look who's 40. Seriously. Infogrames has been buying up a lot of goodies.

They bought exclusive right to the Matrix line of games:

http://www.bluesnews...les.pl?show=347


In 2000, they bought Hasbro Interactive and games.com

http://www.writenews..._infogrames.htm



And the French feeding frenzy continues:

http://dspace.dial.p...w/almanac2k.htm


Exerpt: "The French feeding frenzy continues as Infogrames buys Titus, for a bet. Nothing else happens, because nothing else ever does in July."


Infogrames history. This goes up to June of 2004. The stocks are up and Infogrames seems to be growing. Again, my Microsoft and Borg Analogies stand up.

http://corporate.inf...orp_history.php

[Atari Charles]

Infogrames slashes Jobs. This one is pretty current:

Infogrames moves corporate office to the U.S. which means it is easier to sue people and companies in the U.S. as they will be based there.

http://www.gamesindu...ews.php?aid=745


Infogrames plans to slash hundreds of jobs
Rob Fahey 15:35 27/09/2002

Hopes to cut losses from the troubled European arm of the company

French publisher Infogrames is planning to cut 280 jobs in France - almost 60 per cent of its workforce in the country - in an attempt to cut costs in its underperforming European arm, according to a report in today's Les Echos, a French daily newspaper.

The report further confirms industry rumours over the past few weeks, which had suggested that the closure of the Infogrames-owned Microprose UK studio and job cuts at Reflections were only the tip of the iceberg. Outside France, further cuts are expected in Germany and the UK.

Over 150 jobs in Infogrames Europe have been cut in the last year alone, making these new losses even more drastic. The company employs around 880 people in Europe, 480 of whom are in France. The US branch of the company employs a similar number of people, and has returned to profit after a two-year restructuring effort.

The European operation is now seen as dragging the company down, with sliding sales and disproportionate costs, and increasing amounts of Infogrames' corporate operations are being moved to Infogrames Inc in the USA and away from Infogrames SA in Europe. The company announced earlier this month that it hopes to save 25 million Euros per annum by tightening up costs in Europe, and also plans to reduce the number of European sites from seven to five.

Strict French employment laws mean that it could be quite some time before the drastic cuts in France can be implemented. The company plans to submit the cuts to a workers' committee on October 1. No details of plans outside France have emerged, although the Sheffield House operation in the UK is thought to be particularly at risk, as it already suffered significant job cuts earlier this year and sources within the company suggest that the role of the site has been marginalised of late in favour of centralising more operations in Infogrames' headquarters in Lyons.

News of the cuts was well-received on the stock market, however, with Infogrames SA up almost 18 per cent at the time of writing. In the long term, the cost cutting is essential; Infogrames' debts are astronomical, with a bond of 125 million Euro due to expire in July 2004 and a 309 million Euro bond expiring a year later in July 2005. The company needs to attain strong profitability, and soon, if it is to have any hope of repaying or extending those bonds.

[Atari Charles]

The last one wasn't too current, but it does foreshadow events to come.

A lot of you may think they are a French company and can't easily do anything to someone in North America. Since Infogrames is now based in the U.S., they easily have the power and the means to sue and shut down any operation that they view as piracy regarding the Atari games.

It would not surprise me in the least if Infogrames requests Atari Age to remove the downloadable Atari ROMS. Infogrames will view the Atari Roms as their property and since they are a for profit business, they want to sell these ROMs, not give them away. Afterall, why would a person buy ROMs to play on a computer when they can download them for free? The truth is most people will download something for free rather than buy it if the downloaded item is the same quality as the store bought equivilant.

Just wait and see.

[keitaro]

Hi, I hope no "disturb" anybody with this post. I have read post and info about this and I have a question.
Infogrames give reasons to retire these games, with legal reasons, copyright blah blah , or only they said : "hey man, quit these games of here right now!!" without give a reason??´
This question is because I want to report this in Spanish forums and I want to put the info as better possible and give a right info.
Thanks for all (and sorry for my English )

[sku_u]

TROGDOR said:

- sku_u, can you post the C&D letter you got?  How was the incident resolved?

I didn't receive a C&D order. My situation was similar to Dans except the matter was never resolved. When my wife emailed Atari, they ignored her. Cafepress sent a form letter back stating that the images would not be allowed to go back up in her store unless the Berzerk robot and Adventure arrow were removed from the design. How Atari, Cafepress, or anyone can lay claim to a yellow dot is beyond me. However, I did receive my order.

[Ferris]

Kay let me say a few things…


1.) I am a third year law student.


2.) I own and operate Atari 7800.com and have for quite some time now. Many hundreds of hours have gone into the creation of the current incarnation of that website and it is 100% my work.


3.) I do not use the Atari fuji logo or claim to be affiliated with Atari/Infogrames.


4.) I was well aware that I may be receiving a C&D order. I look forward to this day as it will be fun for me.


5.) To push the line even further, I recently went on line and purchased dot.com domain names of a few Atari products that have yet to hit the market. One day when the time is right I will flick the switch and all traffic will be redirected to my site =)


6.) Yes, I know I’m asking for trouble. Oh well.


7.) The C&D based upon ownership of a web domain its self is bullcrap. Nobody can legally force you to "surrender" a domain name based upon ownership. They can however go after you for copyright infringement and many times firms will try to twist the federal and state code regarding copyrighted intellectual property, which was written WELL before the internet became what it is today, into something it is not. They cannot TAKE your website unless you sign it over to them. However, they CAN purchase it from you in a fair and legal sale, most likely for much, much less than they could if they take the hard road and spend months and years coming after you and having to distract their legal department to something so trivial. That is unless youre marketing rip-off pirated software, etc. Chances are then they will really come after you.


7.) The primary way these things work is a firm, group, or in this case, quasi-large corporation will send a threatening C&D to a citizen who feels scared enough to comply. At this point you can either a.) surrender your site, b.) call their bluff and hire an intelligent lawyer to respond to their empty threats and inform Infogrames that they are not the Government and Imminent Domain does not apply here... or c.) ignore them all together and dare Infogrames to come after you.


8.) For those of you who own Atari-related domains (atari7800.com etc.) and are legitimately not infringing on Atari's copyrights yet are afraid of a C&D, I highly suggest the following


Change the ownership information on your dot.com registry to some random person in some random town in Wellsville, NJ.

Get rid of all reference to contact information on your website, short of anonymous email (i.e. info@youratariwebsite.com)

Dont be scared and do not think that just because someone sends you a letter telling you to do something that you have to comply. They cannot take your home or your car or your first born child. Even if they could, chances are they would not waste the money on it as they understand that 91% of C&D orders are blindly complied with based out of fear. Infact, lawyers get their kicks from making these things personal and threatening. Trust me on this.


Anyway, that's just my two cents. I'm pretty effing pissed at Atari right now. And dont even get me started on the French.

Good luck to all you lovely Atarians out there who have dedicated the past twentysomething years to the company and hobby that we all have loved so much. If anyone needs any help with any of this please feel free to PM me. I will always help whomever needs it.

~Anonymous

[ubersaurus]

keitaro said:

Hi, I hope no "disturb" anybody with this post. I have read post and info about this and I have a question.
Infogrames give reasons to retire these games, with legal reasons, copyright blah blah , or only they said : "hey man, quit these games of here right now!!" without give a reason??´
This question is because I want to report this in Spanish forums and I want to put the info as better possible and give a right info.
Thanks for all (and sorry for my English  )

Well, Atari is planning on releasing compilation packs and, in essence, a TV games type atari console featuring old game rocks. They'd be within their rights to protect these games anyway, but they felt that repros, hacks, and blatantly derivative works being sold infringed on these rights.

Whine and moan about it all you want, that's just how it is. It's a minor deal-I mean, how many people REALLY wanted to buy those games? Chances are they already did, and if they didn't, it's not that hard to find someone who'll be willing to covertly put one together for you. Be honest-you may have said that you were planning on buying it, but can you honestly say that you ever were going to?

It's not a big deal at all...I don't know why people are so insistent that it is.

[MegaManFan]

Interesting strategy Ferris, but if your contact info for your website is not up-to-date and accurate, they can revoke your ownership of the domain name. It's part of the ICANN standards, and would I know it even if I wasn't in the biz because register.com sent me a reminder about it just last week. So if you create an address in New Jersey that doesn't exist with a phone # to match, you're pretty much revoking your right to that domain.

[sku_u]

@Ferris--They will probably come after you and win thanks to this law:

http://www.gigalaw.c...9-11-29-p1.html

[Radio F Software]

I should say, that yesterday Matthew Kato (from Game Informer) and I chatted over the phone for 15-20 minutes about Infogrames in a mini-interview. So hopefully, they'll run an artcile pointing out Infogrames.

[Kenwood]

TROGDOR said:

 
- Several reproductions based on Atari titles (such as Saboteur), and most of the hacks based on games from Atari were also removed from the store.

So what were all the hacks that were removed from the AtariAge Store

[Kuddy]

Kenwood said:

So what were all the hacks that were removed from the AtariAge Store  

Uhh, let's see...

Adventure Plus
Asteroids DC+
Berzerk Voice Enhanced
Borgwars Asteroids
Combat Redux
Combat Rock
Galaxian Arcade
Indy 500 DX (was this ever released?)
Pac-Man Arcade
Return of Mario Bros.
Space Invaders Arcade

Obviously I can't remember all of them, but I only found two on this list that were worthy of purchasing.

[Kenwood]

Kurushimi said:

Kenwood said:

So what were all the hacks that were removed from the AtariAge Store  

Uhh, let's see...

Adventure Plus
Asteroids DC+
Berzerk Voice Enhanced
Borgwars Asteroids
Combat Redux
Combat Rock
Galaxian Arcade
Indy 500 DX (was this ever released?)
Pac-Man Arcade
Return of Mario Bros.
Space Invaders Arcade

Obviously I can't remember all of them, but I only found two on this list that were worthy of purchasing.

Yeah I only have Adventure Plus and PacMan Arcade from that list.

Any others missing from the above list?

[sidcrowe]

Facts:

Infogrames is evil and French.

[sku_u]

sidcrowe said:

Facts:

Infogrames is evil and French.

Way to post the facts. Let's get another thread locked for posting inflammatory remarks.

Infogrames did something that annoyed many of us. Them being French has nothing to do with it. It'd suck just as much if they were a US company.

[sidcrowe]

But they are French

[Thomas Jentzsch]

sidcrowe said:

But they are French      

So what?