Atari's Landfill Adventures, I now have the proof it's true.

[supercat]

Not having evidence for something is not proof that something is not or cannot be true.

 

It is proof that something is nor or cannot be true, iff it would be impossible for that thing to be true without leaving some observable evidence. For example, I think I can pretty safely say that the number of airplanes that have crash-landed in my bedroom within the last year is zero. If an airplane crashed into my bedroom it would leave some pretty clear evidence. It would be impossible for it not to. Thus, in that instance, the absense of evidence does constitute evidence of absense.

 

The question, when evaluating whether absense of evidence means anything, is whether one can be sure that if the suspected event occurred one would find evidence of it. One would have to know the rules and procedures associated with record-keeping to know what inferences may be drawn from a particular absense of evidence. For example, if the police arrest someone on suspicion of possessing stolen property and the charges are later dismissed, what happens to the record of the arrest? If the person has his record expunged, does that remove all trace of the original arrest, or does it remove all record of who was arrested while a record remains showing that someone was arrested, or what?

 

Knowing the rules associated with keeping records would help a lot to efforts to ascertain what happened. I suspect many paper records from that era have been destroyed, possibly after being transfered to microfilm that may or may not be legible. I doubt that there would be any good ways of performing an exhaustive search.

[mos6507]

Sorry, but a lack of evidence doesn't prove anything....

 

What you're trying to do is describe the nature of logic as a way to establish a universal foundation upon which everyone can agree, so we can then derive truth. The fact is, however, that there are profound differences in how people even think all the way down to discussions of logic, proof, and evidence. I know this because I was married to a Jehovah's Witness who only believed what she was told to believe, including that the earth is only 6,000 years old. To some people, rationalization passes for logic.

[moycon]

If the police reports don't exist can the non-believers start with the "told ya so's!"?

 

Doesn't work that way. From Wikipedia's "Argument from ignorance":

 

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence: Not having evidence for something is not proof that something is not or cannot be true. Similarly, merely not having evidence for a particular proposition is not proof that an alternative proposition is instead the case - it is in fact simply lack of evidence, and nothing more."

 

Sorry, but a lack of evidence doesn't prove anything....

 

Yer right, That's why Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster and UFO books still make people rich.

They'll always have that argument to support their beliefs.

I say let them have their Bigfoot, just like you can have your landfill.

[bohoki]

is this the landfill where they buried 50,000 copies of ET for the 2600?

 

or is it the one where they had had to bring every copy of 5200 cloak and dagger to be beamed up by the aliens

[82-T/A]

This is the best thread ever!!!

[Red 5]

Alamogordo Daily News Article from 2005:

 

The 1983 Atari Titanic is rising

 

Shelley E. Smith Alamogordo Daily News

Alamogordo Daily News In 1983, Atari Inc. transported 14 to 18 truckloads of unsold "E.T." and Pac Man cartridges and had them buried in the "old" Alamogordo landfill.

 

 

So started the legend, which has escalated to international a claim of whether this did, or did not, occur. Some are calling it the "Atari Titanic" and comparing it to the legendary Stonehenge or Roswell's extraterrestrial experience.

 

Bruce Snyder recenlty came from Fort Worth, Texas, to visit friends and to do research on the Atari landfill incident.

 

"If you go on the Internet there is a lot of international interest in this from the United Kingdom, Japan and Europe," Snyder said.

 

While filming with a video camera at the old landfill, he said, "I am filming this site to stick on the Internet just to show everybody and to feed curiosity. I want to show them where it is and that way they can quit speculating. It won't really give them anything except knowing that it really did happen. It is said that it is the resting place of 'E.T.,' or the burial site of 'E.T.' Some people believe they were shipped off to Mexico and not buried here."

 

Old Daily News articles fed the theory: Tons of Atari games buried; dump here utilized, (Sept. 25, 1983), and City cementing ban on dumping, landfill won't house any more Atari rejects, (Sept 28, 1983). These articles by former Daily News staff writer M.E. McQuiddy reflect that the Atari dumping did occur.

 

According to landfill officials at the time, 14 to 18 truckloads of Atari cartridges were dumped, steamroller crushed, and buried.

 

The Alamogordo Department of Public Safety reported they received calls that Saturday that youngsters or individuals were taking the cartridges and were trying to sell Atari games to local stores. The following Tuesday, to keep the site from being looted, a concrete slab was poured over the Atari dumpsite, covering about 45 yards.

 

Then City Manager Dan Malone had no idea until Saturday that Texas had chosen Alamogordo as an industrial dumpsite. By Tuesday night, the City Commission established a new ordinance, which limited the flexibility of the garbage contractor.

 

Snyder said, "Some people are having thoughts that it might be fun to try and come out here and dig it up, but in reality it is not a feasible idea. They are treating it as a treasure hunt, just to see where they are at and maybe find some items that were in the Atari warehouse that got buried along with the millions of extra copies of 'E.T.' and other games. You could call them video game fanatics, or digital Atari archeologists.

 

"There are people all over the world that grew up with the Atari 2600s, 5200s and the 7800s. There are many collectors. In my collection I have probably 2,000 games, tops, and there people who have out about 6,000, 7,000, 8,000 game systems."

 

Fire Commander Joe Bailey, of the DPS Fire Station at 619 Texas St., said, "They had a consortium of all the communities of the counties and the municipalities. They closed down the old landfill and opened our new landfill, the Otero County Regional Landfill, located 23 miles south of Alamogordo. In the mid-1990s, the state amended the rules on how the landfills were handled. Now all landfills have to be fully lined with a very thick plastic liner. When it rains the pollutants are caught and can't get into the underground water to contaminate it."

 

From the Sept 28, 1983, article "Dumping could be hidden" by Santa Fe correspondent Kate McGraw, the computer parts and computer games that were dumped at the Alamogordo landfill did not involve hazardous materials as far as anyone knew. However, the potential still existed in landfills around the state for hazardous materials being dumped without the public's knowledge.

 

An Emergency Management Act was passed by the Legislature, which created the Emergency Management Task Force from the incident of the Atari dumping. Code regulations and standard procedures were developed for dealing with anyone dumping questionable materials or hazardous materials.

[Red 5]

There were three news paper articles about it in the paper in 1983 according to my above post.

 

One stating that the games were dumped there, the other stating that because of looting, they would accept no more atari rejects and a third stating they would cement over the rest.

 

This all is consistent with what has been said all along.

 

Still doubt?

Edited October 30, 2006 by therealred5

[bohoki]

There were three news paper articles about it in the paper in 1983 according to my above post.

 

One stating that the games were dumped there, the other stating that because of looting, they would accept no more atari rejects and a third stating they would cement over the rest.

 

This all is consistent with what has been said all along.

 

Still doubt?

 

 

but what is in question is did they dump more than ET carts

 

and what about the commodore graveyard in pennsylvania with all the unsold 128s when the amiga came out then the home for all the ocean games for the amiga

[rbudrick]

but what is in question is did they dump more than ET carts

 

Right. That, and the exact GPS coordinates of the 45 (square?) yard area they were buried in mght be nice.

 

So who's this guy that went to the landfill with a videocamera?

 

-Rob

[A.J. Franzman]

but what is in question is did they dump more than ET carts

Right. That, and the exact GPS coordinates of the 45 (square?) yard area they were buried in mght be nice.

From the context, I think it was the reporter's lack of familiarity with the concrete trade -- what was probably said was "45 yards of concrete", meaning 45 cubic yards of concrete, or 5 large concrete mixer trucks full. If the 14-18 semi trailer loads of stuff were piled in one area (ideally, a pit about 10 feet deep and having about the same area as all those trailers would if parked together) and not spread all over the place, that might be about right to cover it.

Edited November 1, 2006 by A.J. Franzman

[Red 5]

From the news stories from the time (of which we now know there are a few), they all seem to

acknowledge that atari was dumping it's defects. All the carts sent in that were replaced under warranty.

 

As well as a huge overstock of E.T.

 

Either way, I think we now have more than enough proof that Atari did, in fact, dump thousands of carts in a landfill.

We still don't know where and we may never find them as they are probably buried under yards and yards of garbage and cement.

 

I am working with the local Alamogorda paper to get the original stories that were described in the article. Hopefully I can get some sort of copy, scan it, and get it posted soon.

 

Although the crazy consipiracy theorists will just scream about how you can't believe it just because it was in a newspaper (or 10 newspapers). That is was a slow news day, so they decided to make up some crazy story about Atari and dump trucks.

[Red 5]

Okay, so here's the deal.

I spoke with the person in charge of archives over at the good old Alamogordo Daily News.

It took me a couple of days to get a name of someone, but today was the lucky day.

 

He says that they have received more calls for this than anything else, but nobody has ever had a specific date or article for them to search. Since their archives in the office only go back to 2000, nobody was too excited about blindly going to the Alamogordo Library and looking through a pile of microphish until they found it.

 

Since I was able to give him dates (9/25/83 and 9/28/83 specifically) and article titles, he would be sending an intern to the library to get these articles and print up "many" copies so that he will be able to distribute them to anyone who calls and asks for one.

 

He was glad that someboday finally called with specific information about the article so they could find the stories and keep copies in his office.

 

He says I can expect the articles in the next few days. He has three ways to contact me.

Of course I will be posting the articles as soon as I get them.

 

I am also in contact with the Alamogordo Department of Public Safety (which is their Police Department) and they have been very kind as well. They have searched for me for any record of police questioning kids about stealing atari games from that time period. They haven't found anything, but have said since no arrests were probably made there may be no record. She told me she would search more from time to time and contact me if she finds anything.

 

If and when I get these articles and any sort of police report, if you still doubt atari dumpe truckloads of carts in Alamogordo, it is obvious you were a juror on the OJ trial.

Edited November 1, 2006 by therealred5

[moycon]

As long as the articles include the pictures I'll be satisfied.

[Rik]

Take me to the spot ,dig a hole,and pull out the evidence,bits of plastic,circuit board,etc,and if buried in concrete,all the better, as preservability would be magnified,photos and gossip dont prove sweet nothing,then I'll see it as true.THAT is the ONLY way to prove it.And when I say"you" I mean if a bunch of ATARI buffs did this,as anyone else couldnt really give a rats ass if this were true or not.

Edited November 4, 2006 by Rik

[rbudrick]

I think the only way we'd ever get a permit to dig is if we agreed to take the trash in question out of their landfill, and pay them to do it. A big contribution to a local politician's campaign fund would probably do the trick.

 

Hell, if they were so worried about the stuff being buried there back then, they'll be glad to get rid of it. What a messy job that would be! Even then, it's a big longshot, and a lot of friggin trash, but quite possible, I'd think.

 

-Rob

[Rik]

Sorry, but a lack of evidence doesn't prove anything....

 

What you're trying to do is describe the nature of logic as a way to establish a universal foundation upon which everyone can agree, so we can then derive truth. The fact is, however, that there are profound differences in how people even think all the way down to discussions of logic, proof, and evidence. I know this because I was married to a Jehovah's Witness who only believed what she was told to believe, including that the earth is only 6,000 years old. To some people, rationalization passes for logic.

they do not say the earth is only 6000 years old,altogether,they mean that the earth is 6000 years old starting after the creation of Adam and eve,till now,god only knows how old the earth is before that.There were dinosaurs way before us,and that they fully realize,its quite obvious even to j.w's that there are things on the earth older than 6000 years,my parents are J.W's,but they measure the earths age after the creation of the first man and woman,because the time before that is not considered important to them.

[Shannon]

Atari spokesman Bruce Entin said one reason for the dumping was that its plant in El Paso, Texas, about 90 miles from Alamogordo, recently became a center for returned and defective goods. But he said he would not be surprised if some of the dumped cartridges worked.

 

"This is product that is returned by the customer to our remanufacturing facility," he said. "Sometimes buyers erroneously return working merchandise. But the vast majority of what is being buried in New Mexico is damaged."

 

 

Talk about understatement of the year. Is he saying that the game E.T. is damaged? I'm sure there are many that would agree.

[Ross PK]

Someone should get the UK's 'Time Team' on the case. J/K

 

If they did though, there'd probably be more chance of them being able to dig up the landfill, since they're professional archeologists and would have TV crews filming and everything.

 

I hope Mythbusters are at least considering this.

Edited November 4, 2006 by Ross PK

[tcv]

Being on this side of the ocean, I don't know about the 'Time Team.' The Mythbusters, however, seem to be around the right age to be curious.

 

Does the city still own the land?

 

Maybe Geraldo would take it up?

[rbudrick]

Does the city still own the land?

 

Oh, man...good question. I assume they do, but if they don't they can't say shit if the owner lets you dig.

 

-Rob

[tcv]

For what it's worth, there have been a few requests for the Mythbusters to cover this. They've not done it and who knows why?

 

Another show that might be willing to take this up is History Detectives on PBS. They don't produce a lot of shows, which is unfortunate, but they've often taken up topics with narrow interest.

[homerwannabee]

In a strange way I personally like the fact that nothing has turned up. Having a legend this huge is pretty cool. Reality is never as cool as what your imagination can feel in.

[supercat]

For what it's worth, there have been a few requests for the Mythbusters to cover this. They've not done it and who knows why?

 

If the producers covered it, would they get to blow anything up? If not, there's your answer.

 

Perhaps what you need to do is figure out how to rephrase the myth so the producers could blow something up while testing it.

[jaybird3rd]

If the producers covered it, would they get to blow anything up? If not, there's your answer.

 

Perhaps what you need to do is figure out how to rephrase the myth so the producers could blow something up while testing it.

Hey, I have an idea ... just tell them there's an underground cement slab in New Mexico that needs to be unearthed and blown up so we can see if there are E.T. cartridges hidden underneath! That way they have an excuse to get giant backhoes AND dynamite into a single episode! Edited November 7, 2006 by jaybird3rd

[Albert]

For what it's worth, there have been a few requests for the Mythbusters to cover this. They've not done it and who knows why?

 

If the producers covered it, would they get to blow anything up? If not, there's your answer.

 

Perhaps what you need to do is figure out how to rephrase the myth so the producers could blow something up while testing it.

This doesn't really seem to be the tyep of "myth" they would cover on the show. Mostly they cover myths that they can scientifically test in some sort, which usually involves them building all sorts of weird contraptions. For this myth, they would have to do research, make phone calls, interview people, and so forth. Not really the stuff Mythbusters is made of. Only the endgame could result in some satisfying action for them, where they might get to blow up a huge concrete slab of Atari 2600 carts buried in the desert.

 

..Al