444 replies to this topic

[Xebec's Demise]

Recently Jim Norris was kind enough to send me the AR viewer and source code for it. You need to use xfd files with it.

Here is the AR Viewer 7 Source code C++:

http://home.comcast....eo0/arview7.zip

Here is AR Viewer 6 exe:

http://home.comcast....rcityviewer.exe

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Edited by Xebec's Demise, Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:50 AM.

[Heaven/TQA]

thanks Xebec for sending that... but to throw some wood into the fire... are these not cheating informations and tools??? ;=) and the "magic feeling" about AR is lost????

[danwinslow]

Now, Now. Only he gets to decide that.

[RamonetB]

Gunstar, on Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:52 AM, said:

kheller2, on Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:29 PM, said:

I actually have an interview with Price from 87 that I'm trying to get off of stock floppies and onto a pc/mac.  I don't have a registered version of APE (yet), and the Atari810 sio2pc program doesn't work for me either.  Heck, I've tried dumping it to serial etc.. I gotta find me 850Express or something.

I used to have a program that read Atari 8bit floppies directly on a PC. Hmm...

A lot of recent reviews of AR slam it for load times, etc, one person even gave it a bad rating because you couldn't choose your starting character (ala, warrior, cleric, etc..).

BUT, reading through the message archives from the 80s tells a very different story.  People were floored by it, obsessed, even fell off the face of the earth for months at a time (myself included).

This is true. People didn't mind the load times back then, becuase we had all been used to loading games off of tape which took far, far longer than the loading off a disk. waiting for stuff to load in AR from disk was still light-years faster than a cassette tape back then. People today have become too impatient and expect everything to be near instantanious since they are used to hard drives and such.

Agreed.
It's an attitude that is somewhat frustrating as many wonderful classic games such as The Legend Of Zelda, Adventure, AR, Final Fantary, etc. have been "demonized" by modern reviewers because of load times or graphics. They seem to forget the importance of gaming is immersive fun.... And people wonder why so many modern games, as beautiful looking as they are, are ultimately stale, and why some games, such as Alternate Reality, refuse to die.

[Xebec's Demise]

Heaven/TQA, on Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:01 AM, said:

thanks Xebec for sending that... but to throw some wood into the fire... are these not cheating informations and tools??? ;=) and the "magic feeling" about AR is lost????

Xebec's Demise, on Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:52 PM, said:

In fact, I think it's fun to examine the code and game in detail, learning how it works and I enjoy this "cheating" myself.

However, I am bothered to see that you still missed the point in regards to the cartridge:

Why make the cartridge "cheatable" when we already have the disks to manipulate and cheat?  There really is no point.  Nothing is gained.  You will always be able to edit the disk based version easily if that is what you want to do.

However, if the cartridge is different from the disk based game that we already have, in that the cartridge is not easily cheatable, then the A8 and AR community gains something.  We gain a version of the game that can and will be used for competition and sharing.  Since games are about competition and sharing, this is a good thing.  For years to come, people will be sharing and proudly displaying their cartridge based characters with each other, for one reason and one reason alone, because the characters will not be "cheatable." People will respect and appreciate a cartridge based character when they see a good one, if you could just make a backup of your character and then edit it, then people would not - the first thing someone would wonder is if you edited your char or not.  So, other than running faster, the whole project becomes pointless.

Right now, I could go edit a disk character, make him level 20 and give him 100s for his stats, come on here and post a screenshot or take my character disk to a friends house and show him my character and most anyone would say, "So what?  You cheated, nice editing job, who cares?!"

Take the same character on a cartridge that does not allow backups or cheating, show it to a fellow AR fan and you get, "Wow!  Great job on that character.  How long did it take?  I am going to have to get myself one of those cartridges and start playing with you guys...I know I can do better than you! "

Already answered a month ago.

Edited by Xebec's Demise, Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:22 PM.

[remowilliams]

Heaven/TQA, on Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:01 AM, said:

thanks Xebec for sending that... but to throw some wood into the fire... are these not cheating informations and tools??? ;=) and the "magic feeling" about AR is lost????

Not for him. So therefore not for you.

Edited by remowilliams, Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:29 PM.

[Xebec's Demise]

In a way, the AR Viewer could be considered a minor cheat, in that it lets you look at the game in a way you would not normally be able to during gameplay. But, I don't think it will work on the cartridge, not with out modification and I don't think it needs to.

But, it's definately not as much of a direct cheat as this:

http://www.umich.edu...ils/resurex.arc

Anyway, do you think that the cartridge would be better off if all the currently available disk based cheats could be used on cartridge character backups without modification? If you do, why? Or, are you just trying to pick a fight again?

Edited by Xebec's Demise, Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:01 PM.

[Heaven/TQA]

ok. haven't read every of your posts... sorry...

btw. reading the datasoft stuff from 87... they tell people to backup backup backup...so i assume that this issue will be implemented in the cart? or what is the final decision on that?

[Xebec's Demise]

Yeah, that was Datasoft. They were also trying to work out bugs that were causing player's characters to crash and become diseased. And as a result, they were having to "re-cut" new disks to many players free of charge. It really made sense for them to tell everyone to make backups.

They also lost Philip's half completed dungeon and never paid him any money other than $15,000 per year in advances.

They had no idea what they were doing with AR and are more responsible than anyone else for Philip not completing any more games in the series. Because Datasoft was not paying him, he decided to quit programming and get a job.

Anyway, on a disk based game, there was no stopping backups anyway, because anyone with little to no computer knowledge could make a copy of a disk, whether it was encouraged or not. So, by encouraging it, not only did Datasoft have less complaints, but they also aknowledged something that would have happened anyway no matter what they recommended.

The cartridge is a new opportunity for an improved version of the game. Because there are no disks to go bad, there is not really a reason to need a backup of a character other than to cheat death and cheat the difficulty and design of the game; and that is not a good reason at all.

Edited by Xebec's Demise, Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:13 AM.

[Shawn Jefferson]

Xebec's Demise, on Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:07 PM, said:

The cartridge is a new opportunity for an improved version of the game.  Because there are no disks to go bad, there is not really a reason to need a backup of a character other than to cheat death and cheat the difficulty and design of the game; and that is not a good reason at all.

I'm thinking of buying one just so I can write a character editor/backer-upper for it.

[Xebec's Demise]

Shawn Jefferson, on Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:39 PM, said:

I'm thinking of buying one just so I can write a character editor/backer-upper for it. 

Good. Then it will not need to be included on the cartridge.

[kheller2]

Xebec's Demise, on Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:59 AM, said:

But, it's definately not as much of a direct cheat as this:

http://www.umich.edu...ils/resurex.arc

Isn't that the same util that opens up the locations on N main street?

[Xebec's Demise]

Not automatically. The AR Cityviewer that I posted earlier will unlock those locations, adding a door.

With Resurex, you can edit or view all parts of your character including editing your location, placing your character within the blocked off area, though.

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[RamonetB]

Xebec's Demise, on Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:44 AM, said:

Not automatically.  The AR Cityviewer that I posted earlier will unlock those locations, adding a door.

With Resurex, you can edit or view all parts of your character including editing your location, placing your character within the blocked off area, though.

Wow. I'm no familiar this program. I used a program referred to as "The Resurrection Disk." All it did was check if your characters was dead and then mark him as alive again. It did take some of the joy from the game, but at the same time it also saved you from terrible frustrations when you've spent the past 6 months playing the game only to have your character die by being attacked by a green dragon after quaffing a potion of deadly poison.... There comes a point when the possibility of dying isn't worth the play anymore given the time investment. At least, that's been the impression for me. Hence the demand for backups.

I wonder if we can graph that....-->geek<--

P.S. I like the counter idea.

[Xebec's Demise]

Well, remeber that playing on a cartridge will be a new experience, no painfully long disk loads and swaps. You will be able to jump into the game, play and save your character nearly as fast as you could get into a game of Donkey Kong or Pac-Man. And if you die, you will be able to jump right back in on new guy. I think that will change the dynamic of playing the game. If you spent months playing Donkey Kong or Pac-Man until you were able to make it to level 100, you would not expect to be able to back up that spot and start off from there every time you played. That would remove the challenge of playing the game.

In your case, gettting attacked and killed by a Green Dragon is a part of the game. Just as a Pac-Man ghost bumping into you and killing you, even if your on level bazillion, is a part of the game. It's one of the ways you can die. Now, if you happen to be evil then it is more likely you will be immediately attacked, but that was your choice and the risk you took. Or if you try to Trick or Charm the Nuetral Dragon you will also be asking for it, again though, as a result of your choices or gameplay. If you are a good aligned character and a Green Dragon Surprises you, most the time it will immediately leave. And if you Encounter a Dragon and do not whish to die, immediately Disengage and continue to until you are able to Leave, you might lose some items, but you will almost always get away with your life.

Saying that there should be backups so that Green Dragons cannot kill you is the wrong way to go about playing the game. What kind of game strategy or skill do you learn from making a backup? What accomplishment do you get from making a backup? The answer to both is none.

[kheller2]

I think my version of resurex is a lot different from the one pictured here.. and it does unlock the doors on N main street.. it does modify the City disk. I'll see if I can transfer it over some time. Again, all it does is make you alive again or modify the City disk to access these areas.

[jericho]

Hello all AR fans! How nice and exciting it is to find such a forum on the network! I play AR City since high schools, so it's been like 15 years or so and the game is still alive, I think it's definiately the best game I have ever played. I was always shocked how well it was made, the idea was excellent. I spent billions of hours playing AR!!! I first played it on Atari 8-bit, which I borrowed from a friend, all the cables didn't work well sometimes. And lately I found thta there was an emultor, which is sweet.

OK, I have a question and a few comments to share.

My question is: I'm using Atari800Win Plus emulator and I'd like to try the cheats, just for fun. With F8 I enable the Monitor po-up console, but when I type something using "c" command, I don't know how to close this console so I can return to game. How to close it?

OK, I also want to share some of my observations I had over years of playing this game. Moonsweeper, you described how you bought a stiletto, I worked out a way how to negociate prices with smiths, it really works well and for all weapons. You hit 'offer' and you offer 30% of the listed price. If you go less than 30% the smith will throw you out in anger. Better make a few coppers more than 30% just to be safe. OK, the smith will propose his price, you reply with 40% of the original price. Smith's next offer will be approx. 50% of the original price, that's what you accept. I found this out the hard way.

What about the shields in AR City? I never really found any use for them, even when keeping as a Secondary weapon? Did I miss something or are shields just another "hollow" spot in the game, same as casting spells and joining guilds - which was put there, but didn't work. Was it the same with shields? I always put a longsword as a Primary weapon and Plate Mail as Armour and having Protection +2 (from potion) as Active Magic. Any thoughts on that?

Also, the game surprised me a lot of the time with rare things and events. I always thought that the best arour is 'Plate Mail', but once I found from a killed monser a 'Crystal Plate Mail'. I actually only found it once over years of playing.... And also some rares monsters I met were: Master Assasin and the Champion.

My best char was lvl 11.

I suppose characher development in AR City goes like this: First buy a dagger at all cost (enevr bother with a stilletto, dagger is much better). Next stay alive and get your first 3 muggers to gain a level. Survive and don't starve. At lvl 5-6 you are OK, from here it slows down. At lvl 9 you run out of monsters... And here it would be lovely to have additional area, perhaps like Wildrness with stronger monsters for more xp. Oh well...

OK, cheers to all of the funs! AR is still alive! I really regret that the game ended up with only 2 parts and City was much much better... The game would rock these days with an online multiplayer version or something, now that there are possibilities of making it.

Edited by jericho, Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:13 AM.

[kheller2]

The version of resurex I have is 1.4 by the same person(s). I'll have to see if the 2.0 version unlocks the doors too.

[jericho]

Hey guys, please help me out with the Monitor console for Atari800win Plus emulator.

After typing things like 'c 8AC1 1' (increase gold), how do I close the console and get back to the game?

Typing 'quit' quits the whole thing, console and emulator. Please help.

[Chunder]

jericho, on Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:23 PM, said:

Hey guys, please help me out with the Monitor console for Atari800win Plus emulator.

After typing things like 'c 8AC1 1' (increase gold), how do I close the console and get back to the game?

Typing 'quit' quits the whole thing, console and emulator. Please help.

"CONT" - which I seem to recall see listed in the list of commands in the help function ("?")... which in turn should be mentioned on screen as soon as you enter the debugger...

[jericho]

Yiay, it works! Thanks!

I don't have a Help file with the emulator, must be not a full version. And no, when I enter the console, it doesn't say how to exit.

Anyway, now it's working, thanks!

[Chunder]

jericho, on Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:32 PM, said:

Yiay, it works! Thanks!

I don't have a Help file with the emulator, must be not a full version. And no, when I enter the console, it doesn't say how to exit.

Anyway, now it's working, thanks!

Odd - I'm using the Mac OS X port of the same Atari800 emulator - they should be based on the same source code... hmm...

In any event, try entering a ? on the debugger prompt - this should list the commands for you.
Useful ones IMO are m (display memory at a given address) and c (change a memory location to a specified hex value)...

[Shawn Jefferson]

How many really thought the City was the better game?

I've always preferred the Dungeon, mainly because it actually seemed like there was something to do.

[RamonetB]

Shawn Jefferson, on Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:25 PM, said:

How many really thought the City was the better game?

I've always preferred the Dungeon, mainly because it actually seemed like there was something to do.

It's mood preference, I think. The Dungeon certainly has more to do and the quests are very entertaining, which in that regard is more like a "modern" game. You have something to work for. But by the token, it definitely has the feeling of a game, as if you are progressing through it.

In the City, I find it to be more immersive as you literally try to survive (the city is hard!) and do what you can with exploring. Without a set goal, it tends to reflect life a little more as we don't proceed from one quest to the next. It takes a little more immagination than the Dungeon, I suppose, but I enjoy it more.

The Dungeon used to be my favorite. As I've gotten older, the City appeals to me more. Although, it has been a few years since I last played the Dungeon. Who knows, perhaps things will change.

But maybe the best answer to your thought provoking question is: "The Dungeon as Price intended."

[Xebec's Demise]

The City has the feel of an Alternate Reality.

The Dungeon has the feel of a Video Game.