72 replies to this topic

[holygrailvideogames.com]

I feel that the rarity level of Motorodeo and Ikari Warriors should be lowered. A supply of 50-60 of each title was recently found and these are brand new games. Try finding 50-60 boxed copies of any other rarity 9 or 10 games. For that matter try finding 50-60 loose copies of most of the rarity 9 or 10 games. What should be the true rarity for both of these titles?

[AtariAger]

I'd say 9's would be right for these 2 titles.

[CPUWIZ]

mcgrail0007, on Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:45 AM, said:

I feel that the rarity level of Motorodeo and Ikari Warriors should be lowered.  A supply of 50-60 of each title was recently found and these are brand new games.  Try finding 50-60 boxed copies of any other rarity 9 or 10 games.  For that matter try finding 50-60 loose copies of most of the rarity 9 or 10 games.  What should be the true rarity for both of these titles?

Uh, why, the same thing happened with Cakewalk and Stronghold? I believe 50 CIB copies is still bastard rare.

If they do change, Waterworld is a rarity 5.

[holygrailvideogames.com]

CPUWIZ, on Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:15 PM, said:

mcgrail0007, on Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:45 AM, said:

I feel that the rarity level of Motorodeo and Ikari Warriors should be lowered.  A supply of 50-60 of each title was recently found and these are brand new games.  Try finding 50-60 boxed copies of any other rarity 9 or 10 games.  For that matter try finding 50-60 loose copies of most of the rarity 9 or 10 games.  What should be the true rarity for both of these titles?

Uh, why, the same thing happened with Cakewalk and Stronghold? I believe 50 CIB copies is still bastard rare.

If they do change, Waterworld is a rarity 5.

Waterworld should have been lowered long ago.

[YOK-dfa]

mcgrail0007, on Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:21 PM, said:

Waterworld should have been lowered long ago.

What about NTSC Obelix ??

[Christophero Sly]

If we're going to get into this, I can name dozens of carts that need their rarity changed.

Edited by Christophero Sly, Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:46 PM.

[Buyatari]

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If we're going to get into this, I can name dozens of carts that need their rarity changed.

Amen to that.

Lets get it started then.

[shadow460]

Let me start the list with Atlantis day scene carts and The Official Frogger.

[Buyatari]

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Uh, why, the same thing happened with Cakewalk and Stronghold? I believe 50 CIB copies is still bastard rare. 

If those are listed as 10s they also need to be changed. In the eyes of the collectors that I have spoken to a 10 has less than 20 known copies. In most cases they believe if its a 10 if there are less than 10.

Adam

[AtariAger]

Buyatari, on Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:34 PM, said:

If those are listed as 10s they also need to be changed. In the eyes of the collectors that I have spoken to a 10 has less than 20 known copies. In most cases they believe if its a 10 if there are less than 10.

Adam

Interesting...I am curious as to how someone would be able to get an accurate count, of how many of each cart actually exist. Does one go by how many people are known to possess a particular cart or must you speculate on the actual number? There are alot of variables... .

When someone tries to create the, "end all/be all" of rarity lists...let me know!...

[Buyatari]

Quote

Interesting...I am curious as to how someone would be able to get an accurate count, of how many of each cart actually exist. Does one go by how many people are known to possess a particular cart or must you speculate on the actual number? There are alot of variables...  .

Its real easy when 50 new ones are discovered.

There are now at least 50.

As for how do Atari collectors have a general idea of how many of a certain title exist in collectors hands at any given notice? Well they make it their business to know. If I were to ask a select group of collectors (Cpuwiz,Ianoid,Marco,RickW etc) how many copies of Lockjaw were out there in collectors hands they would come up with a number pretty much right on the money. If I were to ask them about Video Life or Magicard I'd bet they would get the number exactly.

Its different with the less rare titles. You could tell me there were 1025 Waterworlds out there or 875 Waterworlds and I wouldn't argue with you. You may be right on and no one would really know for sure. When a Video Life pops up...well people take notice. Its easy to count to ten, you just use your fingers.

Adam

[video game addict]

Maybe it's time to institute a "Spinal Tap" rarity, and make any game with less than 10 known copies an Eleven and then any rarity for which more than 10 copies exist, we can call a 10 just to keep our egos stroked.

[MegaManFan]

Just because I'm paying $210 for a boxed rarity somebody else paid $500 for doesn't mean it should be any less a 10, and just because somebody else down the road gets theirs for $150 doesn't mean I'm going to hold their good fortune against them. If there's only a few hundred or less of these out there out of 10's of millions of Atari systems, that's still pretty frickin' rare.

Edited by MegaManFan, Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:42 PM.

[sku_u]

Buyatari, on Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:58 PM, said:

Quote

Interesting...I am curious as to how someone would be able to get an accurate count, of how many of each cart actually exist. Does one go by how many people are known to possess a particular cart or must you speculate on the actual number? There are alot of variables...  .

Its real easy when 50 new ones are discovered.

There are now at least 50.

As for how do Atari collectors have a general idea of how many of a certain title exist in collectors hands at any given notice? Well they make it their business to know. If I were to ask a select group of collectors (Cpuwiz,Ianoid,Marco,RickW etc) how many copies of Lockjaw were out there in collectors hands they would come up with a number pretty much right on the money. If I were to ask them about Video Life or Magicard I'd bet they would get the number exactly.

You sure about that?

I completely disagree on the rarity 10 designation. I'm actually curious as to who these people are who decided this and what makes their input the be all end all of collecting??? There are roughly 100 hardcore collectors out there who'd shell out the money for a legitimate 10 for the sole purpose of adding it to their collection. I'd put the designation as more like less than 50 copies in existence and yes, I would add Cubicolor (legitimate copies) to that list.

It would be nice to see recognition of games like Off Your Rocker and Dukes of Hazzard reflected in the rarities as well.

[AtariAger]

sku_u, on Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:49 PM, said:

You sure about that?

I completely disagree on the rarity 10 designation.  I'm actually curious as to who these people are who decided this and what makes their input the be all end all of collecting??? There are roughly 100 hardcore collectors out there who'd shell out the money for a legitimate 10 for the sole purpose of adding it to their collection.  I'd put the designation as more like less than 50 copies in existence and yes, I would add Cubicolor (legitimate copies) to that list.

It would be nice to see recognition of games like Off Your Rocker and Dukes of Hazzard reflected in the rarities as well.

Agreed!... (totally)

[YOK-dfa]

MegaManFan, on Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:40 AM, said:

Just because I'm paying $210 for a boxed rarity somebody else paid $500 for doesn't mean it should be any less a 10, and just because somebody else down the road gets theirs for $150 doesn't mean I'm going to hold their good fortune against them.  If there's only a few hundred or less of these out there out of 10's of millions of Atari systems, that's still pretty frickin' rare.

As i always understood, a rarity 10 was the "Holy Grail" of collecting. Something totally impossible to find, and only a few collectors might own one. If there are suddenly so many copies floating around i don't think you could call it a holy grail anymore. They are rare games, but not rarity 10 rare

[Buyatari]

A 10 is a 10. The carts you just are never going to get your hands on unless thats your sole collecting purpose over an extended period of time. The "holy grails".

It doesn't make sense to lump anything else in with Eli's Ladder and Magicard unless its equally as rare.

Cubicolor is a rare game but we are talking the difference between a no-hitter and a perfect game.

Adam

Quote

I completely disagree on the rarity 10 designation. I'm actually curious as to who these people are who decided this and what makes their input the be all end all of collecting??? There are roughly 100 hardcore collectors out there who'd shell out the money for a legitimate 10 for the sole purpose of adding it to their collection. I'd put the designation as more like less than 50 copies in existence and yes, I would add Cubicolor (legitimate copies) to that list.

[video game addict]

Saying that 10 is reserved for qty of 10 or less, makes for a very small window, where basically we would have a 9 point rarity scale, with 10s reserved for a few special carts that don't fall in the ranges of 1-9. Mattg had posted a scale of rarity just a range of quanities for all rarities, it seemed workable. I don't know which thread that was in though.


As you drop the rarities down, then you begin to crowd up on the r9s & r8s & r7s, the whole scale is more bunched up. There's already some huge inconsistencies between the rarities now.

If you search ebay, you can find a Waterworld or Qubes up almost weekly, while River Patrol & Out of Control may only be offered a few times a year. And Color Bar Generator probably hasn't been offered at all.. So there are some huge variances between the rarities, and it's like that all the way down the guide.

Should we really be dropping rarities down every time a new cart is found..


More copies are found all across the board. So you would need to make most of the R9s drop, then drop most of the 8s, then most of the 7s.. It's a never ending cycle. There are still games waiting to be discovered in people's attics & basements, and closets.. There will continue to be finds all across the board of rarities. They are all going to become more common as the years go by.

Pepsi Invaders has a reported 100+ copies in existance, so does it belong as a rarity 10? Whether they are reported found or not, they exist somewhere. So it's reportedly more than double any other rarity 10 and yet only a few are known to exist right now, so we are content with it's place on the rarity list.

[YOK-dfa]

video game addict, on Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:51 PM, said:

Should we really be dropping rarities down every time a new cart is found.. 

Well yes. The rarity guide is not a static list which never should be changed. IMO sometimes it is needed to make adjustments. I'm not saying that we should change it on a daily basis, but some people have stated that at least 50/60 sets of Motorodeo and Ikari Warriors have been found. That does not make it a holy grail anymore in my eyes...

video game addict, on Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:51 PM, said:

They are all going to become more common as the years go by.

Exactly, and the rarity guide should reflect that.

video game addict, on Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:51 PM, said:

Pepsi Invaders has a reported 100+ copies in existance, so does it belong as a rarity 10? Whether they are reported found or not, they exist somewhere. So it's reportedly more than double any other rarity 10 and yet only a few are known to exist right now, so we are content with it's place on the rarity list.

There is a big difference between "should" exist and "does" exist. Of those 100 copies many copies are probably thrown away or lost, never to be found again. The actual number of carts in existance today is probably much, much lower than 100. But in this case a large number of those 2 games have been actually found. The rarity guide should reflect that.

BTW when was the last time some changes have been made to the rarity guide?

[Buyatari]

A few carts is a big deal when it comes to the 10s. When a game has a ten rarity and 10 other copies are found you have just doubled the total available ammount known to collectors. For that same percentage change to happen with Waterworld or Tapper hundreds or thousands would have to be found. I'm sure you would agree to a rarity change to Water World and Tapper if that was the case.

The rarity guide is not a straight line curve its more like a bell curve. But this is not by design its more about where the games happen to fall. The only requirement for a level 4 game or a level 8 game or a level 10 game is that its equally as hard to find (meaning known copies in collectors hands) as the other games with the same rarity number.

Just because there will be many more no hitters than perfect games doesn't mean you allow games which are almost perfect games to be called perfect games. 10 is a tough group to qualify for and for it be respected as "the holy grail" it needs to be maintained as such. Motorodeo is no Eli's ladder.

[Marco]

Yep, it's that time again...

When will you guys finally face that there are just two kinds of games: ones that everybody will have in the end, and ones that only a handfull or maybe a dozen will own in the end?

Cheers,
Marco

[Marco]

sku_u, on Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:49 AM, said:

There are roughly 100 hardcore collectors out there who'd shell out the money for a legitimate 10 for the sole purpose of adding it to their collection.

That much? I'd say there's about only a dozen real 2600 loonies out there. From time to time, new loonies hop on, but many of them disappear again after two or three years. From time to time, there are also collectors from the early days that will leave the hobby. So, when you look at it, it's really not that big a group of must-check-mental-sanity ™ collectors.

Cheers,
Marco

[CPUWIZ]

All of you need to wake up and smell the coffee, mask ROM's were not produced in counts of 20's, I believe the minimum run for a mask ROM was/is around a minimum of 1000 units and very expensive. Only carts with EPROM's can be true 10's if you go by production numbers. Which leaves stuff like Magicard, Video Life and Lochjaw.

I bet you anything, that over 1000 Eli's Ladder carts were made. Still a 10?

So, there you have it, it isn't about the fact that 20 units were produced, it is about the fact that only 'N' amount of people known in the collectors circle own one. How do you know if some grandma or grandpa in Wisconsin isn't sitting on a huge stack of CIB BMX Airmaster's or some dusty old bookstore in California has a palette of Eli's Ladder in the back of the store?

Even if 50 copies of title X were found, that is still bastard rare and I would consider that a 10.

But then again, I don't really care what any rarity guide says, I go by how friggin hard it was to get something. In my mind Colorbar Generator is a clear cut 10, no doubt about it.

[sku_u]

Buyatari, on Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:13 PM, said:

Just because there will be many more no hitters than perfect games doesn't mean you allow games which are almost perfect games to be called perfect games. 10 is a tough group to qualify for and for it be respected as "the holy grail" it needs to be maintained as such. Motorodeo is no Eli's ladder.

Using that exact analogy: a perfect game is pitched once in a pitcher's career if they are lucky. If you're going into "holy grails of collecting," limit it to unreleased prototypes where only one original is known to exist. That's what I'd consider a holy grail. Not a game that anyone with deep pockets can acquire if they offer enough for it.

[Buyatari]

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So, there you have it, it isn't about the fact that 20 units were produced, it is about the fact that only 'N' amount of people known in the collectors circle own one.

exactly.

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How do you know if some grandma or grandpa in Wisconsin isn't sitting on a huge stack of CIB BMX Airmaster's or some dusty old bookstore in California has a palette of Eli's Ladder in the back of the store?

Just like America wasn't "discovered" until Columbus arrived, these games don't count until a collector finds them. And when that happens then the rarity guide if its worth anything needs to reflect this change.

Quote

When will you guys finally face that there are just two kinds of games: ones that everybody will have in the end, and ones that only a handfull or maybe a dozen will own in the end?

Yeap the 10s on one side and rest on the other.