109 replies to this topic

[Robert M]

Pixelboy, on Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:38 AM, said:

Do you realize that what you're proposing here doesn't make much sense? This thread is aimed at idea peddlers, and such people are usually non-programmers by very definition. Most of your list above involves a good understanding of the hardware (capabilities as well as limits) and how programming in-game objects can be done on said hardware. If someone with a good idea has such a technical understanding, he doesn't need to "peddle" his idea around, he can just try to do it himself (and a few actually do just that, BTW).

So this is where your "list" doesn't make sense: For a non-programmer to elaborate on a game idea enough to satisfy your list, he would need the input of an experienced programmer who is interested in seing the "idea" become a real game. But in order to get an experienced programmer interested, the non-programmer needs to get everything already all worked out! It's a regular catch-22!

From the reactions I've seen on these boards to idea peddlers (which has led to the creation of this forum thread), experienced homebrew programmers are NOT interested in coding other people's ideas, no matter how well thought-out they may be, but they ARE interested in helping newbies learn to program games themselves.

I think that's the real message we should all uphold when an idea peddler comes on these boards: "You have a good game idea but don't know how to program it? We'll help you learn the ropes so you can code your game yourself. If you don't want to learn how to program for your target system, don't expect us experienced homebrew authors to do the work for you."

1. You are failing to seperate the design from the implementation. Take the game Monopoly for example. It exists both in the board game form and on video game consoles. The game Monopoly is the set of rules, the board, the cards and the pieces. The game design is independent of the implementation: paper or video. I have yet to see a single idea peddler present even an instruction manual for their game.]

2. As an idea peddler you want a programmer to invest hundreds of hours in your idea for minimal compensation. So you really need to be flexible, and communicate your ideas effectively. Yes, a number of the items I suggested may involve some effort, but if you do the early leg work for the programmer it makes it more likely your idea will be picked up. Programmers are not mind readers. You must effectively communicate the images and ideas in your imagination in a form that a programmer can use. You may have the most awesome game idea ever concieved inside your mind, but if you can't communicate it to others then it is stuck inside your head. In the real world, you would pay a programmer money and the programmer would sit down with you and through a series of meetings work out the kinds of things I listed and present them to you in forms you can understand. In the hobby world, you need to do some more of the work. Yes, it may all be for "nothing". Its a hobby though, and if you don't enjoy it why are you doing it? In the end you have your design and the enjoyment you got from creating and sharing it with the community.

3. I am not the almighty arbiter of good game design. I am merely making suggestions for effective communication. You could come on the boards an say you have an awesome game design: "Orange Ball". That's it, just a name, and maybe you will inspire a programmer. The more effort you put in, the more likely a positive result will occur.

4. The Fade Out project happened because Salsadt (sp?) is a professional digital artist. His sprites are very inspiring to look at. As a programmer, you want to bring them to life. Also he cleary has worked with programmers before. He speaks the jargon, and that makes communication much easier; especially through forums and emails as we do here.

5. I think the programmers have shown that they are willing to look at ideas and make constructive comments on them. What I rarely see is a designer taking that constructive critcism and updating their design. I would expect an ongoing conversation taking several weeks or months of back and forth communciation to generate a good game design. Again, the designer would need to show the flexibilty and persistance that the programmer would need to show to get the project done. Look at how the PPOP thread got programmers exploring what the VCS could do. That was another great designer/programmer session. Did it result in a final game? Not yet, but the interaction and the learning the exchange inspired is a great addition to the record of achievements in this community.

Cheers!

[R. Jones]

Something that I see people alluding to, but not coming out and saying specifically is: "A good game concept for the vcs is one that uses the TIA creatively."

A game concept that doesn't take the TIA into account is like a basketball play that doesn't take defenders into account. There would be no need to run a set play if there were no defenders. Likewise if the VCS were cocaine we wouldn't need any planning.

The effort required to understand the TIA is probably less than half an hour of reading. Learning how to program a full game takes far more time and effort. If asking someone to read for half an hour is asking too much, then asking someone to program a game for many, many hours is definately asking too much.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

R. Jones, on Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:42 AM, said:

Something that I see people alluding to, but not coming out and saying specifically is: "A good game concept for the vcs is one that uses the TIA creatively."

That's what I meants when I wrote about plattform limitations.

Quote

The effort required to understand the TIA is probably less than half an hour of reading. Learning how to program a full game takes far more time and effort. If asking someone to read for half an hour is asking too much, then asking someone to program a game for many, many hours is definately asking too much.

100% agreed.

[Paranoid]

Have you guys started my game yet???

[Mord]

Paranoid, on Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:12 PM, said:

Have you guys started my game yet???

Absolutely! Why, I just finished ironing out the last bug the other night - the secret easter egg regarding the phoenix's appearance now works perf-AH! The source code's on fire!!!

...

Crap, back to drawing board.

[vdub_bobby]

R. Jones, on Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:42 PM, said:

Likewise if the VCS were cocaine we wouldn't need any planning.

"cocaine"?

I don't know what in the world that means, but I like it!

[Pixelboy]

Robert M, on Sun Dec 17, 2006 2:13 PM, said:

The more effort you put in, the more likely a positive result will occur.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

[Robert M]

Pixelboy, on Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:56 PM, said:

Robert M, on Sun Dec 17, 2006 2:13 PM, said:

The more effort you put in, the more likely a positive result will occur.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

Very nice!

[Random Terrain]

R. Jones, on Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:42 PM, said:

The effort required to understand the TIA is probably less than half an hour of reading. Learning how to program a full game takes far more time and effort. If asking someone to read for half an hour is asking too much, then asking someone to program a game for many, many hours is definitely asking too much.

Just remember that reading something doesn't mean you'll understand it. People who cannot understand or remember what they just read need some help from people who can. But yeah, you can't pop up with a sketchy, incoherent game idea about a flying turd and expect a programmer to spend months on it.

[vdub_bobby]

An addendum for the Potential Idea Peddler: Someone may have beat you to it! (Especially if you want TRON converted ...)

I've tried to collect most of the game proposal threads in this thread:
http://www.atariage....howtopic=101359

There are a lot of proposals there, running the gamut from arcade conversions to A800/C64/NES/etc. conversions to movie tie-ins to original ideas. It wouldn't be a bad idea to take a quick glance over there before posting your idea; it might be possible build off previously posted suggestions/mockups.

Note: I don't mean to imply that if someone has suggested it before that you shouldn't re-suggest it. You might have better mockups/ideas/etc.!

Edited by vdub_bobby, Thu Feb 1, 2007 4:39 PM.

[Phantom]

Ok, Idea, Chiller made for the 7800 with light gun capabilities.

[toiletunes]

Paranoid, on Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:12 AM, said:

Have you guys started my game yet???

I finished it, jumped into my time machine, and sold it as "Tomb Raider" for a zillion bucks. Thanks!

[Kepone]

batari, on Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:32 PM, said:

rjchamp3, on Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:01 PM, said:

I was not trying to insult anyone ok, nor threaten, if I did I would not say anything at all, and ps she insulted me for no reason, enough, I havent said anything in months and then I get attacked for no reason I don't think so

You rubbed quite a few members the wrong way with your initial posts in the homebrew forum, and most of us haven't forgotten about that, even though it did occur a while ago. Maybe you've redeemed yourself in other ways since then, I don't know. But I do know that if you can keep your criticism constructive, nobody will be insulted.

It's not often that I check out forums like this but I'm pretty amazed at how much this place has de-evolved in certain aspects. I assume that rjchamp3 isn't much of an Atari fan if he has the audacity to insult homebrewers.

I think this thread is a great idea and will discourage chumps that like to post ideas without any constructive thought, mockups or anything to make the idea "sell".

Just my 2 cents.

[sandmountainslim]

Kepone, on Mon May 7, 2007 11:17 AM, said:

I assume that rjchamp3 isn't much of an Atari fan if he has the audacity to insult homebrewers.

rjchamp3 is just a Mainstream Libertarian like you and I.
I am certain that he didn't intentionally insult anyone.
WP

[twatkins]

heh I read the original post and bookmarked it to show a buddy of mine that is constantly giving me "Ideas" for programs but never is willing to put them down on paper with pictures ...

[espire8]

sandmountainslim, on Mon May 7, 2007 10:26 PM, said:

Kepone, on Mon May 7, 2007 11:17 AM, said:

I assume that rjchamp3 isn't much of an Atari fan if he has the audacity to insult homebrewers.

rjchamp3 is just a Mainstream Libertarian like you and I.
I am certain that he didn't intentionally insult anyone.
WP

Yeah, that can happen. Sometimes I unintentionally do the same thing... best to be a man of few words.

[RegalSin]

Quote

but if you do the early leg work for the programmer it makes it more likely your idea will be picked up

It is not about ideas it is about creativity and team work but most important the want to create.

If I was in a game design feild

I would be the guy who draws, scans, and the convert the sprites with the converter and insert them into the game.

The programmer would be the person who creates the program that converts, scan, and the game egine itself.

The musician would compose the music the

This is why there is no good looking games in the west. It is just a room filled with a bunch of non inspritational dilberts who could not draw for there lives saying ME programmer me most important man can make pac-man do waka waka. Everything Pixel art computer tech guy person is best. Me big boner uga buga.

If I want anybody to work my game then I will have to make my comic strip and politely ask for help to create my game in exchange for some sorta ransom like the next game will be your game to write the story but I draw for it.

In the east alot of the games that is creative and really up there is a team effort and the person who the game was created by ( on pen and paper ) was not a programmer. Some might be Musicians, Graphics designers, fashions designers, and even famous actors.

I mean hurray in the begining everything is bits and byte but that does not mean you need to be a scholor in programming to make a game possible.

It is about a team effort to get games off the ground.

[BigO]

RegalSin, on Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:01 PM, said:

Quote

but if you do the early leg work for the programmer it makes it more likely your idea will be picked up

It is not about ideas it is about creativity and team work but most important the want to create.

If I was in a game design feild

I would be the guy who draws, scans, and the convert the sprites with the converter and insert them into the game.

The programmer would be the person who creates the program that converts, scan, and the game egine itself.

The musician would compose the music the

This is why there is no good looking games in the west. It is just a room filled with a bunch of non inspritational dilberts who could not draw for there lives saying ME programmer me most important man can make pac-man do waka waka. Everything Pixel art computer tech guy person is best. Me big boner uga buga.

If I want anybody to work my game then I will have to make my comic strip and politely ask for help to create my game in exchange for some sorta ransom like the next game will be your game to write the story but I draw for it.

In the east alot of the games that is creative and really up there is a team effort and the person who the game was created by ( on pen and paper ) was not a programmer. Some might be Musicians, Graphics designers, fashions designers, and even famous actors.

I mean hurray in the begining everything is bits and byte but that does not mean you need to be a scholor in programming to make a game possible.

It is about a team effort to get games off the ground.

Uh, yeah... The phrase "broad brush" came to mind more than once while reading this.

There's a reason that so many of the original Atari games credit a single author. Have you considered the possibility that programming a game for these old consoles is not exactly the process you assume and insist that it is?

Edited by BigO, Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:18 PM.

[batari]

RegalSin, on Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:01 PM, said:

It is not about ideas it is about creativity and team work but most important the want to create.

If I was in a game design feild

I would be the guy who draws, scans, and the convert the sprites with the converter and insert them into the game.

The programmer would be the person who creates the program that converts, scan, and the game egine itself.

Why would you need to scan and "convert" an 8-wide sprite?

RegalSin, on Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:01 PM, said:

The musician would compose the music the

A musician would first need to understand the technical limitations of TIA sound before a single note could be written.

RegalSin, on Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:01 PM, said:

This is why there is no good looking games in the west. It is just a room filled with a bunch of non inspritational dilberts who could not draw for there lives saying ME programmer me most important man can make pac-man do waka waka. Everything Pixel art computer tech guy person is best. Me big boner uga buga.

It's ironic that you mention Dilbert, since you seem about as ignorant as the pointy-haired boss. You don't have any clue of the technical limitations of the 2600, much less why normal game design rules are completely irrelevant here.

RegalSin, on Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:01 PM, said:

In the east alot of the games that is creative and really up there is a team effort and the person who the game was created by ( on pen and paper ) was not a programmer. Some might be Musicians, Graphics designers, fashions designers, and even famous actors.

It's not about east or west or even creativity that much. You need to understand the 2600's technical limitations before you can do anything. There are only a few artists here (like, two) that actually do.

[Kepone]

He's not worth it, batari.

Being rational is realizing that the 2600 can't do every godforsaken idea out there that people have. It has limitations much like any other gaming system.

[Bakasama]

RegalSin, on Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:01 PM, said:

Quote

but if you do the early leg work for the programmer it makes it more likely your idea will be picked up

It is not about ideas it is about creativity and team work but most important the want to create.

If I was in a game design feild

I would be the guy who draws, scans, and the convert the sprites with the converter and insert them into the game.

The programmer would be the person who creates the program that converts, scan, and the game egine itself.

The musician would compose the music the

This is why there is no good looking games in the west. It is just a room filled with a bunch of non inspritational dilberts who could not draw for there lives saying ME programmer me most important man can make pac-man do waka waka. Everything Pixel art computer tech guy person is best. Me big boner uga buga.

If I want anybody to work my game then I will have to make my comic strip and politely ask for help to create my game in exchange for some sorta ransom like the next game will be your game to write the story but I draw for it.

In the east alot of the games that is creative and really up there is a team effort and the person who the game was created by ( on pen and paper ) was not a programmer. Some might be Musicians, Graphics designers, fashions designers, and even famous actors.

I mean hurray in the begining everything is bits and byte but that does not mean you need to be a scholor in programming to make a game possible.

It is about a team effort to get games off the ground.

You sound like you're all talk and yet doesn't have a clue what you're saying. You think that the you as an "pixel artist" should dictate how to make a game? You're saying graphics are THE most important part of a video game?! Blasphemy!

[supercat]

Bakasama, on Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:07 PM, said:

You sound like you're all talk and yet doesn't have a clue what you're saying. You think that the you as an "pixel artist" should dictate how to make a game? You're saying graphics are THE most important part of a video game?! Blasphemy!

While I'll readily admit that Toyshop Trouble came out much nicer than it would have done without Nathan Strum's graphics, the game itself played just fine with the placeholder graphics that I designed (three of which made it into the finished product IIRC). Good sprite designs definitely help give a game a 'professional' look, but they're nothing without a good game engine to back them up. And with some rare exceptions, the game engine is by far the bigger project. Toyshop Trouble had far more different graphics than would be typical for a 2600 game (16 toy shapes and 27 walking frames) but the graphics still represent a small amount of the total effort.

[Bakasama]

Yeah, I've always felt game play was the heart and soul of any game. We live in a time where many current games look a lot better than the games we played in the past but some of them are sorely lacking the game play dept.

[Robert M]

RegalSin, on Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:01 PM, said:

If I was in a game design [field]

I would be the [artist] who draws, scans, and the convert the sprites with the converter and insert them into the game.
The programmer ...
The musician ...

Where is the game designer in that list? A game is not the art, it is not the music, and it is not even the code. The GAME is a abstract mathemetical construct. The programmer (for the most part) implements that construct, and the artist and musician decorate it. On rare occasions audio and graphic properties of the product are fundametal to gameplay (i.e. the sonar sound in Dolphin). Usually audio and graphics provide a emotional framework to help the player wrap their mind around the mathematical construct underneath and find it more enjoyable.

As for the whole East/West styles thing. Its true that games in the West tend to be either sports sims or FPS games with little depth. While Eastern games tend to more arty and attempt to have depth with lots of characters saying "..." all the time and woman being raped by tentacles and stuff. I find little to enjoy in either style.

Cheers!

[Bakasama]

Robert M, on Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:11 AM, said:

As for the whole East/West styles thing. Its true that games in the West tend to be either sports sims or FPS games with little depth. While Eastern games tend to more arty and attempt to have depth with lots of characters saying "..." all the time and woman being raped by tentacles and stuff. I find little to enjoy in either style.

Don't forget the heaps of pseudo intellectual crap that passes a "depth" and "meaning" in many a Japanese game.