[pocketmego]

Let's finally get down to brass taxes. I did an iteration of this over on the Lemon64 forums. You tell me, at the end was Jack Tramiel a Sinner or a Saint in terms of his relationship with Atari and most notably the 7800?

-Ray

[ninjarabbit]

I'll vote neither. Yes he was an ass and he was cheap but he helped keep Atari alive for another decade which is impressive given the state it was in after the Crash.


As far as the 7800 goes my opinion is that it would have flopped regardless of what he would have done. Warner had really messed things up with the industry and the Atari name so if the 7800 had been released in 1984 or 85 no retailers would have carried it since they still had an overstock of older Atari products that Warner refused to buyback and by 1986 and 87 the Nintendo juggernaut had gotten so big that nothing would have stopped it or even put a dent in it.

[Angelus]

I vote sinner. Even if the gaming industry had been healthy I don't think he would have loosened his wallet much to help promote the Atari name for console gaming. Warner sold Atari to the wrong guy. Tramiel should have gone into car dealership.

This post has been edited by Angelus: Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:40 AM

[Kroko]

Imagine how life would have been without CBM and without the C64. And how would it have been without the Atari 600/800XL. I vote for Saint. I can't call him a sinner, no matter what happened later ...

[shadow460]

Neither--he made some mistakes but did the best he could.
A different course of action from him might have kept the 7800 alive longer, but at what cost?

[8th lutz]

You can't call him a saint but a the same not a sinner. Jack screwed the 7800 with having the xegs and the 2600 out the same time. If the 2600 jr was not made before jack there, the 2600 won't be a problem, you can blame warner for relaying the 2600 to much. The 2600 jr was waiting to shipped out at the time Jack took over. There were more things that happened to atari that before Jack. Commodore was sucessful despite of Jack being tight with his money. At the same time, you have to credit jack with realizing the computer would be in peoples homes. With atari Jack had to overcome what Warner did to stores rep. with atari due to warner. Jack was not that type of a person to overcome that in management, yet atari made it till 1996 was very good considering how warner left atari in.

This post has been edited by 8th lutz: Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:18 AM

[pocketmego]

I will give him this much. He had to overcome a LOT of Kassar's crap. That ANY store would carry Atari stuff after the crash was a miracle and I suppose Tramiel deserves more than a little credit for that.


-Ray

[Shawn Sr.]

pocketmego, on Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:42 AM, said:

Let's finally get down to brass taxes. I did an iteration of this over on the Lemon64 forums. You tell me, at the end was Jack Tramiel a Sinner or a Saint in terms of his relationship with Atari and most notably the 7800?

-Ray

Dude, what the heck is with your overwelming intrest with Jack Tremil. ? It's starting to go past silly and into the creepy column really quick

[pocketmego]

Shawn Sr., on Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:33 AM, said:

pocketmego, on Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:42 AM, said:

Let's finally get down to brass taxes. I did an iteration of this over on the Lemon64 forums. You tell me, at the end was Jack Tramiel a Sinner or a Saint in terms of his relationship with Atari and most notably the 7800?

-Ray

Dude, what the heck is with your overwelming intrest with Jack Tremil. ? It's starting to go past silly and into the creepy column really quick

I'm not thinking so. I've been reading the Commodore 64 book. It got me a little interested in someone who wa sa rather strong personality and an important figure in the history of gaming. I appreciate your interest in my well being though. But, I assure you, I'm fine.

The man did play a role in both Atari and Commodore and therefor is very important in my particular field of study, which is video game history. I am thinking of writing a book you know.

But, if the avatar bothers you, I've been thinking of changing it anyway. I've got something new in mind anyway.

-Ray

This post has been edited by pocketmego: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:58 AM

[Goochman]

Prob the worst thing Jack did was let the Amiga get away from Atari. OTherwise at the time it was a smart move getting into the computer arena with a strong product offering like the ST. Where he went wrong was trying to keep his hand in the console till with the 2600jr, 7800 and XEGS while trying to sustain the ST line. Anyone remember trying to get an ST in the US? It was painful since most of the product went overseas. The XEGS shouldve never been released and the 2600jr left on the shelf. All console resources shouldve gone to the 7800 with some innovative games vs the weird hack jobs Atari released.

Though in the end Atari wasnt big enough in is 50% form to compete $$$ wise with the other vendors. The Amiga didnt save Commodore even though it was very revolutionary.

Thanks for the ST Jack - I really ejoyed that machine.

[pocketmego]

Goochman, on Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:29 AM, said:

Prob the worst thing Jack did was let the Amiga get away from Atari. OTherwise at the time it was a smart move getting into the computer arena with a strong product offering like the ST. Where he went wrong was trying to keep his hand in the console till with the 2600jr, 7800 and XEGS while trying to sustain the ST line. Anyone remember trying to get an ST in the US? It was painful since most of the product went overseas. The XEGS shouldve never been released and the 2600jr left on the shelf. All console resources shouldve gone to the 7800 with some innovative games vs the weird hack jobs Atari released.

Though in the end Atari wasnt big enough in is 50% form to compete $$$ wise with the other vendors. The Amiga didnt save Commodore even though it was very revolutionary.

Thanks for the ST Jack - I really ejoyed that machine.

How do you think things might have been different if Atari got the Amiga?

-Ray

[carmel_andrews]

a few facts you might consider

tramiel shut done what ammounted to 90 p/c of the R&D that previously existed under warners

Tramiel wasted months and months and millions or 100's of 1000's of dollars trying to sue CBM and Amiga corp over the Amiga, according to the contract Atari (warners) had with Amiga, Atari could have just gone straight ahead and built their own version of the Amiga as well as claim ownership on any silicon amiga handed over to commodore

Also, one must remember that Tramiel initially shelved plans for Atari re-entering the games industry (oncwe he'd assumed ownership from warners) , prefering instead for the Atari name to be used for computers, that's why it took 3 years b4 the 7800 was released in UK/EU (1987)

According to various books and websites detailing history of videogames during the 80's, Tramiels Atari screwed the retail/dealer market just as much as warners did, whilst i will accept that tramiel didn't have as much 'vapourware' promises like warners did, tramiel still played the same game as warners did

The ST wasn't much of an 'ATARI' product, as according to wikipedia, the ST was well over 90 p/c complete before tramiel started poaching CBM engineers and getting his mits on the ST, the only part of the ST that was 'ATARI' was the o/s (even though it was written by DRI, who's founder had a hand is programming the original MSdos/PC dos)

Also, although Atari lived on till about 1996, that was due largely to offloading of it's jaguar inventory, Atari closed down all manufacturing and production operations betw. 1992/3 when it decided to pull out of the hardware business (that's why IBM manuf'd and distrib'd the jaguar and not Atari)

Also, most people seem to forget that most of Atari's product lines under tramiel's ownership, had actually been purchased/bought in from other companies

i.e The ST (and compatibles) like ste stac(e)y, TT, falcon, st book/pad etc, are all based on technology that tramiel poached from commodore

The re launched 7800 (originally designed by GCC)

The Lynx (originally designed by Epyx)

The Jaguar/Panther (Hardware orignally designed by Flare2, UK)

The Portfolio (originally designed by DIP, UK)

The Limited release CDAR (the ST CD rom drive add on), originally designed by Activenture back in 1985

The Inital XE range (is actually a modified version of the unreleased XL-F, made by warners)

All this because tramiel sold off or closed down the majority of warner's Atari R&D operations, which is why tramiels Atari were forced into buying in technology rather then try and desgin/create technology itself

[Rybags]

Tramiel & sons inherited a basket case (ie Atari Corp).

Putting time and money into the 7800 from the outset would have been too much of a gamble.

As it is, the 7800 is barely on par with the NES and SMS for graphics, and woefully behind everything for sound (unless POKEY cartridges are considered).

Fair enough, the ST was a rush job and really, a generation behind the Amiga so far as the more advanced aspects of graphics and sound go. But, the OS was reasonably stable from the word go which is more than can be said for the early Kickstart/Workbench variants.

In fact, the entire Amiga OS was pretty flawed until the 2.x versions a couple of years later.

Atari had fallen behind in the console race right from when the Intellivision came out. It's efforts to counter the IntV and Coleco systems, let alone the Japanese consoles, were second rate and too late to say the very least.

They were playing catchup from the early 1980s, and by the time they had their chance with the Lynx and Jaguar, they blew it too. The Sega Game Gear and Nintendo Gameboy were inferior handhelds but still managed to kill the Lynx in the marketplace.

Regardless, if the Jaguar had been given a better chance, I don't think it could have stopped the juggernaut which was the Sony Playstation.

When the Tramiels took over, the console industry was still down. They had limited funds, and in my opinion they took the right gamble by putting the majority of their resources into the ST.

The fact that the ST dominated the home 16-bit computer market for a good amount of time vindicates their choice.

Even if the 7800 was released 2 years earlier, I don't think the Tramiel marketing machine could have given it equivalent success to the ST in the console market.

[Goochman]

carmel_andrews,

Though most of what you say is true - What hardware did Warner have ready at the end before selling to Tramiel? The 7800 which as you noted was from GCC. The Amiga was almost lost at that time and in many respects designing hardware in house was becoming a losing game.

The fact Atari outlasted CBM was a miracle if you ask me.

[wgungfu]

Rybags, on Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:03 AM, said:

Fair enough, the ST was a rush job and really,

While that soundbyte seems to make the rounds on web pages (usually due to the missinformation about the Atari/Amiga relationship), that is not the case. I would not call a year+ design time "rushed", though they certainly did have some active time schedules towards the end (in '85).

[wgungfu]

carmel_andrews, on Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:19 AM, said:

Tramiel wasted months and months and millions or 100's of 1000's of dollars trying to sue CBM and Amiga corp over the Amiga, according to the contract Atari (warners) had with Amiga, Atari could have just gone straight ahead and built their own version of the Amiga as well as claim ownership on any silicon amiga handed over to commodore

That's not the case, and you're using a bit of hindsite there. The former dealings Atari Inc. had with Amiga was not discovered by Leonard until about the time Amiga was paying back the money (via Commodore). By that time Commodore had already sued Atari Corp. and was trying to block the ST from being made. Tramiel's counter suit was hardly a waste, given that it allowed the injunction to be lifted in the end.

Quote

Also, one must remember that Tramiel initially shelved plans for Atari re-entering the games industry (oncwe he'd assumed ownership from warners) , prefering instead for the Atari name to be used for computers, that's why it took 3 years b4 the 7800 was released in UK/EU (1987)

Actually no, that's not why and not true. Jack was actually counting on Atari's game stock to keep the new company afloat while he finished development of the ST. His "evaluation" meeting for the 7800 where he threw the 7800 off the desk was par for the course for someone who felt the item was over priced, especially for something that wasn't the "heart and soul" of the company any more. There were in fact on again and off again negotiations over the next 2 years, until finally in 1986 when they reached an agreement and the 7800 was released. During that time they sold (and except for the 5200, supported) their inherited stock (which was quite sizeable), never actually leaving video games from the consumer standpoint. In fact, they also wen't after retailers for unpaid video game sales during 1985 (such as K-mart who still had payments due from the Warner/atari period) in order to get more income for the ST development. It was on the development side that their focus changed from mainly a video game company to a computer company that also did video games.

Quote

(even though it was written by DRI, who's founder had a hand is programming the original MSdos/PC dos)

Gary and DRI had nothing to do with MSdos, so I don't know where you got that idea from. Gary created the CP/M platform, which was done for several different cpu's. Atari's version of GEM runs on top of a modified CP/M 68K (which they also licensed) base.

This post has been edited by wgungfu: Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:09 AM

[wgungfu]

Goochman, on Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:29 AM, said:

Prob the worst thing Jack did was let the Amiga get away from Atari.

Let the Amiga get away? He never intended to use it for the ST, and it provided a perfect countersuit tool.

[Rik]

Jack Tramiel?is he still alive?man,he was up there in age back then!cant seem to find info on what hes doing today.Saint or Sinner?,id say he was in it mainly for the money,like most execs and those in high places,ENRON ANYONE?,ANYWAY,like his son SAM'S company, FROGGO,those are probably the WORST games ever!probably was planning to make his millions or a handsome amount so he could retire comfortably,or to buy his cocaine,as far as JACK goes,he made pretty bad mistakes,which obviously didnt help,id say hes both SAINT AND SINNER,cant blame Jack for everything,CORRUPTION and GREED,the ever so famous traits of humans is more to blame,but its us the fans that suffer the most by their F#$%^K UPS .NOTE ,EXXON should of been ENRON

This post has been edited by Rik: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:09 PM

[pocketmego]

Rik, on Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:51 PM, said:

Jack Tramiel?is he still alive?man,he was up there in age back then!cant seem to find info on what hes doing today.Saint or Sinner?,id say he was in it mainly for the money,like most execs and those in high places,EXXON ANYONE?,ANYWAY,like his son SAM'S company, FROGGO,those are probably the WORST games ever!probably was planning to make his millions or a handsome amount so he could retire comfortably,or to buy his cocaine,as far as JACK goes,he made pretty bad mistakes,which obviously didnt help,id say hes both SAINT AND SINNER,cant blame Jack for everything,CORRUPTION and GREED,the ever so famous traits of humans is more to blame,but its us the fans that suffer the most by their F#$%^K UPS

I know, I was pretty shocked when I found out he was still alive too.

-Ray

[Atarifever]

I voted saint. All else aside, THAT Atari still released a computer line, an 8 bit system, a handheld system, a redesign of the 2600, and even entered into competition in the same era as the PS1. No one since has done anything close to that under the Atari name. I don't care who developed the technology, what was not supported enough, or what deals were turned down, that Atari still had its name on some hardware.

To be fair though, I don't really dislike infotari either. The Flashback 2 is at least a good attempt at producing something worthwhile, and they at least have their name out there.

[jaybird3rd]

Atarifever, on Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:11 PM, said:

I voted saint. All else aside, THAT Atari still released a computer line, an 8 bit system, a handheld system, a redesign of the 2600, and even entered into competition in the same era as the PS1. No one since has done anything close to that under the Atari name. I don't care who developed the technology, what was not supported enough, or what deals were turned down, that Atari still had its name on some hardware.

Don't forget the Atari ST series, the Atari Portfolio palmtop, their line of PC-compatble desktops, their PC- and ST-compatible laptops, and some very interesting and groundbreaking ideas that didn't get any further than the prototype stage (the ST Pad, the MicroFalcon, etc).

It's easy to look back at the Tramiel era and judge it and say that they did too much of this or not enough of that, and I'm as disappointed about the 7800 as anyone, but let's face it ... the Atari legacy wouldn't be nearly as varied or as interesting without the products that Tramiel's Atari created. In fact, I'm looking now at all the Atari stuff that I regularly use (an XEGS, a 7800, a 2600JR, a Jaguar, and a 130XE), and they're all Tramiel-era systems. That's a lot more than I can say for Infogrames' "Atari," whose products are completely worthless to me with the sole exception of the FB2.

This post has been edited by jaybird3rd: Mon Oct 2, 2006 8:51 AM

[JamesD]

Given the state of Atari in this Time Article I'd say he did pretty well.

[doctorclu]

"but let's face it ... the Atari legacy wouldn't be nearly as varied or as interesting without the products that Tramiel's Atari created."

That's what I feel too. I said "Saint" in the sense that he continued the legacy in many good ways. Many I think are bitter with the Tramiels because Atari is no longer around in it's old form, and in short want something to blame.

Here's how I see it though towards the end. In the early 90's we were going from the multiple computer platforms to a few "standards". We had Atari, Amiga, Macintosh, IBM, and other platforms. In the end it was the most base-line basic computer that would make it, the IBM based computer.

People needed a computer that was cheap, could be attained easily, and something they could use without hastle. To do this, people needed a computer that multiple people could make.

I believe the Atari computer was ATTEMPTED to be that main computer. I say this because musicians and other companies that really liked the Atari wanted to use the Atari computers. One such company was Data Stytch, a loom company in Ft. Worth, TX. That company LOVED the Atari TT030 for it's speed and reliability, but sadly in the end Atari could not meet their supply needs of TT030 computers, so they went with a IBM based solution.

In short, all computers that were sold during this time from a single manufacturer were doomed to fail. Even IBM would loose control of it's own computer as the computers based on it's platform took off like wildfire, selling for cheaper than the IBM's they were based on.

Macintosh found a graphics niche and dug in. Fanatical users kept that computer alive in a world where computers were gelling down to a single platform.

Atari I think did VERY well in the midi scene, but in time, since Atari stopped making newer computers, the users slowly faded off.

So in short, the world was ready for a common platform, and Atari, like many others, could not keep up supply to meet demands, and so, died off. Not Tramiel's fault I believe. TRamiel would have had to pimp the ST platform to clone computer makers and make TOS free to make to outlive this storm.

Shoulda, coulda, Woulda.

And while I love the Atari 800 a LOT, well, Atari could have ended right there. That would have sucked.

[Atarifever]

doctorclu, on Fri Nov 3, 2006 10:01 PM, said:

So in short, the world was ready for a common platform, and Atari, like many others, could not keep up supply to meet demands, and so, died off. Not Tramiel's fault I believe. TRamiel would have had to pimp the ST platform to clone computer makers and make TOS free to make to outlive this storm.

Shoulda, coulda, Woulda.

And while I love the Atari 800 a LOT, well, Atari could have ended right there. That would have sucked.

That's an important point. Tramiel, whether he was pursuing a grudge or not, tried with the computers pretty well. Had the Atari computers carved out a niche like Apple, we'd all be talking about how we wish Atari still made games, but chances are us loyal Atari fans would probably mostly be using Atari computers the way Mac users use macs. We'd remember how they had once made consoles, and rumours wuld surface from time to time that they were going to make another console, but we wouldn't be talking about how focusing on computers during and after the crash was a bad idea.

Because the computer market went the way it did, and because hind sight is 20-20, people tend to think for some reason Atari should have put more resources into the console market that had already burned them, instead of the booming computer industry. Atari's best bet, and it pains this poor 7800 user to say it, when they focused on computers WAS computers.

[JamesD]

The ST and Amiga were doomed do to lack of continuation of the 680x0 series by Motorola.