113 replies to this topic

[dwhyte]

This is just a question for you gurus out there... Could this be possible?

[xxl]

http://atariarea.krap.pl/slightsid/

[St(r)yker]

http://www.atari.org...pic.php?id=9322

[Gunstar]

Anything is "possible" when it comes to interfacing tech, it just takes the will and imagination in engineering. If someone wanted too, The C64 and A8 could be completely combined into one machine. Of course compatibility with both of the individual machines would create more problems, but anything CAN be done.
No chip that I know of was ever designed to be used with specific support chips. Of course this is easier to see with examples like the 6502, used in dozens of computers that have overall very diiferent architecture.

Edited by Gunstar, Fri Oct 7, 2011 8:45 AM.

[rdemming]

Gunstar, on Fri Oct 7, 2011 8:40 AM, said:

No chip that I know of was ever designed to be used with specific support chips.

Although maybe strictly necessary, ANTIC & GTIA are almost an inseparable duo (especially in the 80s). GTIA needs its display data fed in the AN lines. And the only chip I know that does that is ANTIC. Of course nowadays you could use a programmable chip to interface with GTIA. The other way around similar; ANTIC generates graphics data for a display chip and the GTIA/CTIA/FGTIA chips are the only ones that understand that data. But nowadays the VBXE understands the ANTIC graphics data too, but I would still consider ANTIC & GTIA as chips that were made for each other as using one of those alone would require a considerable effort to create an alternative for the other..

Gunstar, on Fri Oct 7, 2011 8:40 AM, said:

The C64 and A8 could be completely combined into

I think putting an VIC-II chip into an Atari would be difficult since they use different ways read graphics data from memory. ANTIC halts the CPU when it is accessing the bus while VIC-II & CPU have alternative turns for memory cycles (plus it seems it can halt the CPU when it needs more cycles). The memory cycle interleaving is why the C64 CPU runs only at 1MHz.So this difference would complicate things when you want them both in one machine. And then you could only use one at the time because feeding both chips with data won't leave much memory cycles for the CPU to run.

Robert

[Rybags]

Some architectures use seperate lines rather than phases of the clock cycle but that could be overcome by extra support hardware.

But these days - no need to use the other "old" chip in many cases, just do emulation with improvements on PIC, FPGA or AVR.

[oky2000]

Rybags, on Fri Oct 7, 2011 9:15 AM, said:

Some architectures use seperate lines rather than phases of the clock cycle but that could be overcome by extra support hardware.

But these days - no need to use the other "old" chip in many cases, just do emulation with improvements on PIC, FPGA or AVR.

SID FPGA emulation isn't great, think FRODO C64 DOS emulator around 1997

[José Pereira]

Hope this works but just for curiosity... but just to see how it would look and sound...
I would be more interested in what could be done with a cart that can update/enhance A8 Gfxs/colour/sound possibilities...
What would be possible in the 'A8 cart port pins' to get something like that C64 enhancement (think it's called 'REU'...)



Back to this Topic, was wondering if any C64 guy(s) ever tried to put an A8 POKEY chip in a C64?

Edited by José Pereira, Fri Oct 7, 2011 12:29 PM.

[Gunstar]

rdemming, on Fri Oct 7, 2011 9:07 AM, said:

Gunstar, on Fri Oct 7, 2011 8:40 AM, said:

No chip that I know of was ever designed to be used with specific support chips.

Although maybe strictly necessary, ANTIC & GTIA are almost an inseparable duo (especially in the 80s). GTIA needs its display data fed in the AN lines. And the only chip I know that does that is ANTIC. Of course nowadays you could use a programmable chip to interface with GTIA. The other way around similar; ANTIC generates graphics data for a display chip and the GTIA/CTIA/FGTIA chips are the only ones that understand that data. But nowadays the VBXE understands the ANTIC graphics data too, but I would still consider ANTIC & GTIA as chips that were made for each other as using one of those alone would require a considerable effort to create an alternative for the other..

Gunstar, on Fri Oct 7, 2011 8:40 AM, said:

The C64 and A8 could be completely combined into

I think putting an VIC-II chip into an Atari would be difficult since they use different ways read graphics data from memory. ANTIC halts the CPU when it is accessing the bus while VIC-II & CPU have alternative turns for memory cycles (plus it seems it can halt the CPU when it needs more cycles). The memory cycle interleaving is why the C64 CPU runs only at 1MHz.So this difference would complicate things when you want them both in one machine. And then you could only use one at the time because feeding both chips with data won't leave much memory cycles for the CPU to run.

Robert

I don't care how much work it takes or how hard it is, that's not the point. ANYTHING CAN BE DONE. Stuff can be hard to do, but NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING is impossible. It's people with your attitude and closed mindedness on such things that keep them from happening. Everything you said above is true, as far as I know, but there's no point, ANYTHING can be worked around with electronics. It's called imagination and hard work. Timing problems? More hardware can solve it. Different ways of reading data? What do you do when you need to talk to someone who doesn't speak your language? You get a translator. ANYTHING can be done, maybe it's very difficult, but NOTHING is impossible. It all comes down to will, imagination and hardwork, maybe to much to be worth while, but that is also not the point.

Edited by Gunstar, Fri Oct 7, 2011 12:46 PM.

[rdemming]

Gunstar, on Fri Oct 7, 2011 12:36 PM, said:

It's people with your attitude and closed mindedness on such things that keep them from happening.

Hi Gunstar, I'm surprised to hear such harsh words from you. If I point out some technical difficulties, then it doesn't mean that I think nobody should try. I never said that. Problems are there to overcome and I think it would be exciting to see a C64/Atari 8-bit hybrid mutant. But discussing about the pro/cons is for sure one of the reasons to have a forum like this, isn't it? If I was so closed mindedness then I wouldn't support projects like the VBXE and the 7800XM that deviate quite far (too far according to some) from the original machine.

That said, I think a sort of VIC-II chip can already be "put" in an Atari "in a way" if you have a VBXE board. In theory you could write a VBXE graphics core that emulates the VIC-II chip. Since the VBXE board has its own ram, you won't have the memory access problem. Of course the registers/memory will be mapped differently so you can't run existing VIC-II code but it would be relatively easy to convert such code.

Robert

[oky2000]

Please give such a modified machine (A8 with SID cart) to emkay please, at least then the delusional fool may actually be able to produce something that sounds remotely SID like outside of his warped sense of hearing

[analmux]

oky2000, on Sat Oct 8, 2011 9:21 AM, said:

Please give such a modified machine (A8 with SID cart) to emkay please, at least then the delusional fool may actually be able to produce something that sounds remotely SID like outside of his warped sense of hearing

Now it's finally time to report you and your behaviour to the moderators / admins.

[emkay]

oky2000, on Sat Oct 8, 2011 9:21 AM, said:

Please give such a modified machine (A8 with SID cart) to emkay please, at least then the delusional fool may actually be able to produce something that sounds remotely SID like outside of his warped sense of hearing

Actually it would be a shame, if SID finds place in the A8....
My Goal wasn't to make POKEY sounding like SID, because it's not possible due to some missing features. The Goal always was to have music sounding in the correct "ambient", with the possible technical features.
It's more a shame to the SID and his developer, that all this complex techniques behind the sound producing just sounds musically a bit better than what POKEY can do, as the SID was intended to sound like a real synthesizer.
Also, SID Music isn't real music. So you just may start to think, why you defend this unfinished/incomplete Synth-Chip.

Edited by emkay, Sat Oct 8, 2011 10:50 AM.

[Gunstar]

rdemming, on Sat Oct 8, 2011 1:25 AM, said:

Gunstar, on Fri Oct 7, 2011 12:36 PM, said:

It's people with your attitude and closed mindedness on such things that keep them from happening.

Hi Gunstar, I'm surprised to hear such harsh words from you. If I point out some technical difficulties, then it doesn't mean that I think nobody should try. I never said that. Problems are there to overcome and I think it would be exciting to see a C64/Atari 8-bit hybrid mutant. But discussing about the pro/cons is for sure one of the reasons to have a forum like this, isn't it? If I was so closed mindedness then I wouldn't support projects like the VBXE and the 7800XM that deviate quite far (too far according to some) from the original machine.

That said, I think a sort of VIC-II chip can already be "put" in an Atari "in a way" if you have a VBXE board. In theory you could write a VBXE graphics core that emulates the VIC-II chip. Since the VBXE board has its own ram, you won't have the memory access problem. Of course the registers/memory will be mapped differently so you can't run existing VIC-II code but it would be relatively easy to convert such code.

Robert

Sorry to be so harsh, it just seemed at first reading that you were saying it's all but impossible when I know anything is possible. (with support hardware/software). The fact is I don't even give a damn about the SID chip or the C64, but as an electronics hardware guy, I've seen all kinds of stuff that many people said couldn't be done due to their lack of imagination. So I'm quick to strike back, sometimes too quick and I strike out at the wrong people becuase I think they are something they are not. Sorry.

[rdemming]

@Gunstar. No problem. You are right that everything is possible if you want to (even traveling faster than light if that is indeed true ).

[sack-c0s]

emkay, on Sat Oct 8, 2011 10:49 AM, said:

Also, SID Music isn't real music. So you just may start to think, why you defend this unfinished/incomplete Synth-Chip.

Because some people may prefer it to a chip designed solely to read paddles and button presses that just happens to make noises as a side-effect

[Gunstar]

Obviously the Pokey WASN"T designed only for paddles and buttons, since it can produce sound. And I hardly say 4 voices or 2 16-bit voices is a "side-effect!"
A side effect would be one sound channel with beeps and boops. And guess what? I happen to prefer the pokey's sounds and music to the SID. Others do too!
Also, the Pokey does better sound effects and guess what? I'd rather have good sound effects than synth "music." If the music was all I cared about, I'd turn the sound down and put on a CD instead!

[oky2000]

emkay, on Sat Oct 8, 2011 10:49 AM, said:

oky2000, on Sat Oct 8, 2011 9:21 AM, said:

Please give such a modified machine (A8 with SID cart) to emkay please, at least then the delusional fool may actually be able to produce something that sounds remotely SID like outside of his warped sense of hearing

Actually it would be a shame, if SID finds place in the A8....
My Goal wasn't to make POKEY sounding like SID, because it's not possible due to some missing features. The Goal always was to have music sounding in the correct "ambient", with the possible technical features.
It's more a shame to the SID and his developer, that all this complex techniques behind the sound producing just sounds musically a bit better than what POKEY can do, as the SID was intended to sound like a real synthesizer.
Also, SID Music isn't real music. So you just may start to think, why you defend this unfinished/incomplete Synth-Chip.

You're soooo easy to wind up emkay lol

You are alone in your views here, most normal people celebrate differences in retro designs, there is no better or worse.

I will leave you with the following to reconsider your isolated idiotic comments made in all seriousness....



99% of people here, like it or not, would appreciate the sophistication of effects for that demo released 18 months after launch.

(if anyone has xex/atr of similar music demos from Atari 400/800/800XL time period then just send to me and I will record that too and upload to my channel no problem)

[oky2000]

Gunstar, on Sat Oct 8, 2011 3:18 PM, said:

Also, the Pokey does better sound effects and guess what? I'd rather have good sound effects than synth "music." If the music was all I cared about, I'd turn the sound down and put on a CD instead!

OK another fool with blinkers AND earmuffs. +2 in nobhead club lol

So anyone else want to prove what a retard they are by adding more serious replies of an uneducated in ALL retro machines display if low intelligence?

Clearly SACK was poking back at emkay's banal idiotic spiel, which he deserves.

Why is this attitude of "xxxxxxx is SH1T!" mentality found here yet other site have proper unbiased discussions REGARDLESS OF WHICH BRAND THE FORUM MAY BE A HOMAGE TO? *sad*

Can't really see evidence that either chip when programmed well is bad at SFX myself. OK Pokey can emulate the over used VCS booming explosion sound bollox but outside Star Raiders 2 type games that means fuck all to intelligent people who celebrate the differences especially people who's experience is of 1000+ games on ALL FORMATS *meh*.

Albert didn't make this site fo

[wood_jl]

Seriously, the SID does do better "synth-sounding" music, but I have to agree that the POKEY does better "arcade" sound effects. Like when Pacman dies, the SID sound is pretty (very "synthy") but POKEY really does sound more like the arcade (less "synthy") and that's what we're after, is it not?

Also, I fail to see the point in denigrating POKEY, the A8, and the A8 enthusiasts who continually strive to make POKEY sing the best tunes it can. It's not capable of everything SID can do (other than the extra voice) but some of it sounds pretty damn good, sometimes close, and those who engage in such endeavors are simply to be admired for their personal prowess. emkay and analmux are the men!

Cut some people some slack, and don't diss POKEY or the guys here. I think Lemon64 would be a fine place to do those things.

[sloopy]

José Pereira, on Fri Oct 7, 2011 12:28 PM, said:

Hope this works but just for curiosity... but just to see how it would look and sound...
I would be more interested in what could be done with a cart that can update/enhance A8 Gfxs/colour/sound possibilities...
What would be possible in the 'A8 cart port pins' to get something like that C64 enhancement (think it's called 'REU'...)



Back to this Topic, was wondering if any C64 guy(s) ever tried to put an A8 POKEY chip in a C64?

the REU for the C64/C128 is just a memory device... it can store 128k-2M of ram depending on model/mod's... its main claim to fame is, its speed, it does true DMA, so can hit high xfer speeds... it doesnt increase sound/resolution/colors, it just allows them to be used in more ways. Similar to mem upgrades in the A8, like the ext ram of the 130XE etc...

as for the rest of the 'discussion' in this thread... i will pass on making a comment...

sloopy.

[emkay]

sack-c0s, on Sat Oct 8, 2011 2:59 PM, said:

emkay, on Sat Oct 8, 2011 10:49 AM, said:

Also, SID Music isn't real music. So you just may start to think, why you defend this unfinished/incomplete Synth-Chip.

Because some people may prefer it to a chip designed solely to read paddles and button presses that just happens to make noises as a side-effect

1. SID does less than the developer expected.

2. POKEY does a lot more of what the developer expected.


It's also a matter of taste, if you like SID sounds and SID-Music.

But, we're talking about this irregular defense of SID. A chip that even doesn't really exist, due to the different sounding of the different revisions.


POKEY was always the same from the early 800 prototype til the last XE . So we talk of one chip here.


I've never been really happy with POKEY's sound capabilites, referring to music.

SID has some very good tunes, belonging to the "sounding" style and 16 bit resolution. But, one had to learn how the sounds were intended, to understand the music.


As it seems, many children grew up with this slide missunderstanding of music. Beeing caught in this cage of slight false reality, makes them searching for explanations why others don't get "their" truth.


OKY2000's defense seems to be formed on that.

Edited by emkay, Sun Oct 9, 2011 2:05 AM.

[emkay]

oky2000, on Sat Oct 8, 2011 3:40 PM, said:

emkay, on Sat Oct 8, 2011 10:49 AM, said:

oky2000, on Sat Oct 8, 2011 9:21 AM, said:

Please give such a modified machine (A8 with SID cart) to emkay please, at least then the delusional fool may actually be able to produce something that sounds remotely SID like outside of his warped sense of hearing

Actually it would be a shame, if SID finds place in the A8....
My Goal wasn't to make POKEY sounding like SID, because it's not possible due to some missing features. The Goal always was to have music sounding in the correct "ambient", with the possible technical features.
It's more a shame to the SID and his developer, that all this complex techniques behind the sound producing just sounds musically a bit better than what POKEY can do, as the SID was intended to sound like a real synthesizer.
Also, SID Music isn't real music. So you just may start to think, why you defend this unfinished/incomplete Synth-Chip.

You're soooo easy to wind up emkay lol

You are alone in your views here, most normal people celebrate differences in retro designs, there is no better or worse.

I will leave you with the following to reconsider your isolated idiotic comments made in all seriousness....



99% of people here, like it or not, would appreciate the sophistication of effects for that demo released 18 months after launch.

(if anyone has xex/atr of similar music demos from Atari 400/800/800XL time period then just send to me and I will record that too and upload to my channel no problem)

Hear a difference?

[emkay]

If you want to create "dreamy" melodies, you have to take care that an instrument doesn't change it's face.

Keep aside the "SID bias of the tune, stereo, and DSP. Just listen to the melodic voice.



The "best SID" 6581 R1 has problems keeping the face of an instrument.
An "A" should be an "A", alike whether its played at octave 0 or 5 .
But it changes from "A" to "Ä" to "EE" to "I" when it gets higher.
Not sure how to surpress this with the SID, at POKEY we simply can change the offset between two channels.

[sack-c0s]

oky2000, on Sat Oct 8, 2011 4:02 PM, said:

Clearly SACK was poking back at emkay's banal idiotic spiel, which he deserves.

Yep - regardless of what the chip was designed for I have said what I like it for and why, it's just Emkays attitude that pisses me off greatly.

So is he going to look me in the eye and tell me there were never revisions of the pokey? not one little bugfix? No double or quad-chips on a die for arcade use? By his own (nonsensical) rules the pokey doesn't count either

sod him anyway - he's not done anything in 20 years now and I don't see that changing in the near future...