King_Salamon Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Hey all... I bought my system like new in the box locally back in the summer. I brought it hom and tested it and everything was good in terms of the rom/ram tests and the sound tests. I had a mod on it (which everyone here determined to be a salt mod if I recall but it wasn't important) and at the time that's all I had so back in the box it went. Anyway, since then I placed an order and got myself a reliable power supply and an AV cable from Best Electronics as well as a couple of carts (always wanted a Donkey Kong with all 4 levels!). Those all arrived and they stayed in the box as I was renovating my room. Then a few weeks ago, I purchased an Atarimax cart and programmer to get more gaming goodness and when it arrived I was hell bent on getting my room finished. Then a few days ago, we put the finishing touches on my room and I started getting things set up. Adventure 2 for the 8bit is being shown in Portland and I thought tonight would be the perfect night to sit down and play on my new 130XE. I set it all up and was excited to play some Donkey Kong... turned on the power and was greeted with the ROM RAM testing screen... I thought it was weird and when I started seeing alternating red and green squares, my heart sunk. What I was sooo looking forward to turned into a mess. I know it isn't the end of the world but I thought I would post on here to see who can help and how much it'll cost me? I live in Canada but have no problem shipping it anywhere in North America (although keeping it in Canada would be most cost effective.). Man what a supreme bummer. This post can be a call for help and I hope someone can direct me to someone who can fix this. I was soo excited to start gaming on my first Atari 130XE. sigh... have a great night everyone and perhaps I can try to find footage of Adventure 2 to soothe my disappointment with this debacle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocRotCod Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 I can fix this for you. I live in the states but i've repaired many of these units. You have to be careful on XE's when removing the old RAM as the pads/traces can easily lift off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Hey all... I bought my system like new in the box locally back in the summer. I brought it hom and tested it and everything was good in terms of the rom/ram tests and the sound tests. I had a mod on it (which everyone here determined to be a salt mod if I recall but it wasn't important) and at the time that's all I had so back in the box it went. Anyway, since then I placed an order and got myself a reliable power supply and an AV cable from Best Electronics as well as a couple of carts (always wanted a Donkey Kong with all 4 levels!). Those all arrived and they stayed in the box as I was renovating my room. Then a few weeks ago, I purchased an Atarimax cart and programmer to get more gaming goodness and when it arrived I was hell bent on getting my room finished. Then a few days ago, we put the finishing touches on my room and I started getting things set up. Adventure 2 for the 8bit is being shown in Portland and I thought tonight would be the perfect night to sit down and play on my new 130XE. I set it all up and was excited to play some Donkey Kong... turned on the power and was greeted with the ROM RAM testing screen... I thought it was weird and when I started seeing alternating red and green squares, my heart sunk. What I was sooo looking forward to turned into a mess. I know it isn't the end of the world but I thought I would post on here to see who can help and how much it'll cost me? I live in Canada but have no problem shipping it anywhere in North America (although keeping it in Canada would be most cost effective.). Man what a supreme bummer. This post can be a call for help and I hope someone can direct me to someone who can fix this. I was soo excited to start gaming on my first Atari 130XE. sigh... have a great night everyone and perhaps I can try to find footage of Adventure 2 to soothe my disappointment with this debacle. It`s most likely that some of the 4164 RAM chips have failed, the Micron chips that Atari commonly used are known for this. The problem could also be in the logic circuitry that controls access to the different banks. The 130XE is known to be easy to damage when desoldering ICs, when those with less desoldering skill replace RAM I recommend cutting the legs off the original chips then desoldering each individually to reduce the risk to the circuit board. I also found an alternative method, it's a patent about upgrading computer memory boards with 4116s to 4164s, the +5V lead to the original IC is cut close to the body, an insulator is placed between the chip and the lead, the new RAM is stacked on the original and soldered in place. This may not look good but it works, saves the time/effort of desoldering, and virtually eliminates the risk of damage to the circuit board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Salamon Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 What puzzles me is that a month or so ago, I had the ram working perfectly fine and then I opened up the system to see what mod it had and when I put it back together and turned it on, it went to hell. I guess it's true that curiosity does kill the cat. lol BillC would you be willing to replace the ram for me? As you're in BC it should be cheap to mail it and theres no customs etc. Let me know your price and we can arrange something. Like I said earlier, this unit is like new and in amazing condition for it's age. I think it's like micron chips too.... I believe I had one NEC chip and the rest had a mew logo i believe. Seems to fit in the theme... mew and cat... curiosity killd the cat. argh. If BillC doesn't do the repairs, I will wait for another Canadian, otherwise I will go to the US. DocRotCod, I'll keep you posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 What puzzles me is that a month or so ago, I had the ram working perfectly fine and then I opened up the system to see what mod it had and when I put it back together and turned it on, it went to hell. I guess it's true that curiosity does kill the cat. lol BillC would you be willing to replace the ram for me? As you're in BC it should be cheap to mail it and theres no customs etc. Let me know your price and we can arrange something. Like I said earlier, this unit is like new and in amazing condition for it's age. I think it's like micron chips too.... I believe I had one NEC chip and the rest had a mew logo i believe. Seems to fit in the theme... mew and cat... curiosity killd the cat. argh. If BillC doesn't do the repairs, I will wait for another Canadian, otherwise I will go to the US. DocRotCod, I'll keep you posted. I don't really have the time, I have quite a few repairs/upgrades of my own that are waiting for when I do. My desoldering skills also aren't that good, which is why I clip the legs off bad RAM before desoldering. This method is only useful for dead(or even readily available/inexpensive) ICs, but not for something you may want/need to reuse. You might check with Atari8warez from Toronto. I don't have any knowledge about his diagnostic/repair skills, but I do know that he designed/makes an auto-sensing SIO2PC/1050-2PC USB device, info about it in this thread: http://www.atariage....502pc-dual-usb/ Customs shoudn't be too much of an issue as long as the documentation clearly states that it is being returned from repair, you may have to pay GST/HST on the cost of the repair. The cost of international shipping is what will add up, any parcel over 1Kg sent via Canada Post to the US must be sent Expedited Parcel or better, any parcel over 4lbs. sent via USPS to Canada must be sent Priority Mail International of better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grevle Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 The Alternative method looks interesting. is that as easy as cut the power to the chip the + and - and then insualte to avoid contact with the new chip soldered onto the pins of the orginal chip ?. that would be useful for anyone with basic solder skills. can this method be used for ram upgrades (more ram) also on, XEGS or 800xl if one have some suitable ram chips for those systems ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 (edited) You might check with Atari8warez from Toronto. I don't have any knowledge about his diagnostic/repair skills, but I do know that he designed/makes an auto-sensing SIO2PC/1050-2PC USB device, info about it in this thread: http://www.atariage....502pc-dual-usb/ @King_Salamon Hey King.... I can do it for a fellow Canadian+Atarian for the cost of shipping and parts. If it's only one chip to replace then no charge on the chip. If more is needed I would have to buy them and will let you know about the cost. If you want me to socket all the ram chips though it would be a lot more work so I would have to charge you $25 for labour. So if you're interested PM me. Cheers. Ray Edited October 1, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocRotCod Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Hmmm.. good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 The Alternative method looks interesting. is that as easy as cut the power to the chip the + and - and then insualte to avoid contact with the new chip soldered onto the pins of the orginal chip ?. that would be useful for anyone with basic solder skills. can this method be used for ram upgrades (more ram) also on, XEGS or 800xl if one have some suitable ram chips for those systems ? The original link I gave isn't working, here is another link to US Patent # 4632293, it only calls for cutting/insulating the +5V pin of each chip, without power the original RAM is inactive. My memory was faulty, this patent was for replacing 4164 with 41256 as the chips need to be pin compatible and the 4116 is +12V supply. This method works the same as any memory replacement/upgrade, the stacked chip should operate the same as if it's in a socket or soldered direct to the circuit board. This method was meant for companies commercially upgrading memory circuit boards from 4164 to 41256 DRAM, saving them most of the time spent desoldering the old RAM and eliminating the risk of damage in doing so, but the same features make it useful for hobbyists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+kheller2 Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Doesn't this method assume the existing chips work? If you fry a chip, isn't there the possibility the internals might be shorted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocRotCod Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Well IMO it's just plain bad workmanship to do that. Pull the old RAM, socket it, and put new RAM in. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimo Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Well IMO it's just plain bad workmanship to do that. Pull the old RAM, socket it, and put new RAM in. I agree, if a jobs worth doing, it's worth doing right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) I agree, if a jobs worth doing, it's worth doing right. Yeah but, right and wrong are subjective concepts, if the fix serves the purpose and works why not?. Besides what could be the downside of doing it that way?, besides Bill mentioned a positive aspect - not risking to delaminate/lift a trace while desoldering -. So whether its right or wrong is largely a personal decision. Adaptive perfectionism is healthier IMO. Edited October 2, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 In theory if there was a marginal soldering of a leg, tinning the leg and soldering the chip on top might be enough to make it worse. The skill and time involved in desoldering and putting a socket in isn't much greater than doing piggy-back, so may as well do it right. And cost is a non issue, maybe 30 cents for a cheap socket or a bit over a buck for a machined one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) In theory if there was a marginal soldering of a leg, tinning the leg and soldering the chip on top might be enough to make it worse. The skill and time involved in desoldering and putting a socket in isn't much greater than doing piggy-back, so may as well do it right. And cost is a non issue, maybe 30 cents for a cheap socket or a bit over a buck for a machined one. Well needless to say, I assumed that all the necessary visual checks are done before piggybacking the new chip and as I mentioned above the issue is not the cost but rather to eliminate the possibility of a mishap with the rather delicate traces on the 130XE motherboard. I found that cold solder joints are an exaggerated problem on through-hole type boards but lifting traces are more frequent occurrences. Edited October 2, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiassofT Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 The original link I gave isn't working, here is another link to US Patent # 4632293, it only calls for cutting/insulating the +5V pin of each chip, without power the original RAM is inactive. Now this is a really stupid idea. I guess I'll file a patent how to fix a blown fuse with aluminium foil and see if I can collect some money from that Background: you should never ever have a logic chip connected to your circuit which doesn't have a power supply connection. If you do this, the chip will be powered via the connected inputs (mainly address/data lines in this case) and this can lead to all kinds of erratic behaviour. So: do it properly, remove the faulty chips (clipping them off and cleaning the holes is simple and OK) and don't trust any bizarre methods, even if someone filed a patent for them so long, Hias 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocRotCod Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Even if it were me and I didn't know how to fix it, I would have someone else do it. To be honest, if you know what you are doing, desoldering an XE is no big deal. I've done many of them. Then again i'm a perfectionist and just knowing it was done the other way would seriously bug me. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Even if it were me and I didn't know how to fix it, I would have someone else do it. To be honest, if you know what you are doing, desoldering an XE is no big deal. I've done many of them. Then again i'm a perfectionist and just knowing it was done the other way would seriously bug me. Most people here are in your situation :-). and that is the real issue here not the techniques used in doing the job :-) @Hias: I always value your input in these forums but this time I would have to say you are at least partially wrong. Not connecting power input of a chip does not necessarly wreck havoc if you know what the effects will be. Yes the chip will be powered by the other pins but this is not always a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiassofT Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I always value your input in these forums but this time I would have to say you are at least partially wrong. Not connecting power input of a chip does not necessarly wreck havoc if you know what the effects will be. Yes the chip will be powered by the other pins but this is not always a bad thing. Let me put it this way: there might be situations where an unconnected power supply doesn't cause severe harm. But, usually, there are still several unwanted side effects (like higher load on the inputs) if you do this. So better don't do it at all. In this special case you have severe side effects. The DRAM chip isn't disabled at all (clipping /CAS and connecting it to VCC would have disabled it) and in case of a read access the outputs of the "disabled" chip and the new chip will fight against each other. This will both be the case when you try to "disable" a chip with some defective DRAM cells and also if you replace the chip with a larger one. DRAMs are also known for having high dynamic current draw (on access and refresh). There's a reason for putting a decoupling capacitor near the DRAM chips. If VCC isn't connected this means the dynamic current needs to be supplied via the (mainly address line) inputs. I don't think this is a good idea at all... so long, Hias Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) Ok, I am not familiar enough with tech details of DRAMs to make any comments and I will take your reply as the definitive answer to the RAM issue. In other cases, like a multiplexer (M75HC4053) for example, i have not seen any issues with the operation that is serious enough to cause a problem. One side effect I observed with such a setup was that Input Switching took longer (much longer than 15ns spec) but in my case fast switching was not required so i could have lived with that side effect. You may ask why I chose not to connect the Vcc, well my power supply line had low current (7mA) and was trying to conserve power. I am not sure if this is the right way of doing it but in my case worked without problems. So sometimes bending the rules seem to work without ill effects, that's probably why piggybacking the RAMS by just cutting the Vcc worked in their case, but again I am not familiar enough with that subject Edited October 3, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Salamon Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 Just an update - sent my 130xe to Atari8Warez for it's checkup... can't wait to get it back and FINALLY get some playtime with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) Just an update - sent my 130xe to Atari8Warez for it's checkup... can't wait to get it back and FINALLY get some playtime with it! Hey Joey, when did you send it?... That means I have to order your parts soon and get my soldering iron ready , but I'd like to see the beast first to make sure I know what to order. By the way is this the same machine you mentioned in another thread regarding the switch next to SIO port - which seemed to be related to an internal pill upgrade - . That machine was working then, I guess opening her guts didn't go well with the old geezer Anywayz some tender loving care and some CPR should get her back in action. Edited October 10, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) Ok, received the 130XE today. This is one brand new looking, extremely clean 130XE i have ever seen, no color fading, not a spec of dust or dirt inside. Anyway, the first think I did was to open the case and find out what that switch is all about. And then the verdict..... It definitely looks like the internal PILL. There is one unidentified chip in between the DPDT switch and the ECI. Looks like the markings on the chip was erased, so I can not identify it... but here are the photos for the experts who can better identify the mod. By the way these are the connections to the ECI: R/W ®, +5v (13), RD5 (14), RD4 (A), GND (B). One side of the switch controls the +5V going to the unidentified chip's Vcc pin. I will be doing a RAM Test next... Edited October 10, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Xmas tree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Bad RAM or the decoder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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