Selling 'Homebrew' games in Rom form?

[Rev]

I know I've read about people doing this somewhere before, but not sure how it turned out. I bring this up because I think it would be nice to have D2K (and future releases) on my CC3. And since I do not have a cart dumper or anything like that, Im wonder if it is viable to sell a Rom and send to someone and then they can load it on the CC3 themselves.

 

But the only downside is that the Rom may get 'leaked' and hurt potential sales. There really is no way to prevent this from happening is there? (i would still buy hard copies myself)

[jaybird3rd]

Unfortunately, as convenient as it would be for those of us who own cartridges like the CC3, I suspect that the piracy problem would deter homebrew authors from offering digital copies of their games.

 

I think what's really needed is an easy way for publishers to "watermark" individual ROM images with a serial number or the purchaser's name, with just enough protection to make the changing of the watermark a non-trivial task. Like the locks on household doors, this wouldn't be an "unbreakable" form of security, and it wouldn't have to be: it would be just enough to keep people honest and to discourage them from giving away the images. Personally, I think this would stop 90% of those who would otherwise distribute pirate copies; the other 10% are determined enough to dump the cartridges themselves.

 

I once tried to get a conversation going about the possible ways to achieve this, but everyone thought I was talking about some onerous form of DRM, and they went so freaky nuts about it that I gave up on trying to explore the idea further.

[Games For Your Intellivision]

Even if you have a cart dumper, you are going to have a hugely difficult time dumping d2k. You would have to have major skills.

 

At the moment, we are not interested in selling rom images. I know that some have no intention of distributing it, but it only takes one person.

[+wood_jl]

I think what's really needed is an easy way for publishers to "watermark" individual ROM images with a serial number or the purchaser's name, with just enough protection to make the changing of the watermark a non-trivial task. Like the locks on household doors, this wouldn't be an "unbreakable" form of security, and it wouldn't have to be: it would be just enough to keep people honest and to discourage them from giving away the images. Personally, I think this would stop 90% of those who would otherwise distribute pirate copies; the other 10% are determined enough to dump the cartridges themselves.

 

That reminds me of the registered version of "APE" (Atarimax). Every time I run it, it says it's registered to me; my name and/or address comes up on the screen.

I am a huge supporter of Atarimax (go, Steve!) anyway so I wouldn't thought of giving it away. With my name on it, I guard it carefully!!!!

 

With the games, It would be really nice to include a digital copy with the cart, it's predictable what would happen, eventually.

[intvnut]

I've considered doing the watermark thing. So long as it's easy to apply the watermark, not easy to remove it, and not intrusive on the game experience, I think it's a win. I understand that people want the cartridges to work, but at the same time don't want their collectables out getting worn.

 

Now, on the flip side, my current board design has some features that aren't supported by all the emulators or by the CC3, so if I develop a game that uses said features, the ROM image isn't useful outside of the board. I suppose if I work with Chad, I could maybe develop a firmware upgrade to add these features to the CC3. I'm not sure what I'd do for these titles, though.

 

If you just lose a few features (such as the ability to save games or high scores), then maybe that's not so bad. But if the game's unplayable, that's a non-starter. :-)

[BillyHW]

You could sell ROMs for download to a much larger potential market though. There are always the guys who collect the boxes and carts anyways. If increased piracy is offset by increased sales, would it not be worth doing?

 

Does anyone actually know how much would be gained vs. how much would be lost, economically?

 

Perhaps ROM downloads for sale could follow a couple years after the cart version, kind of like hardcover and paperback books.

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

This subject has been addressed several times now, it ain't going to happen, get over it lol.

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/184437-no-digital-copies/page__p__2325787__hl__selling%20rom#entry2325787

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/188414-homebrew-cartrom-release-idea/page__p__2398370__hl__selling%20rom#entry2398370

 

Sure there are more and better examples........

Edited June 25, 2012 by OldSchoolRetroGamer

[+DZ-Jay]

I don't see it as a big deal. It depends on the market you are trying to cover. If your intention is to break into the mainstream, then you'll most likely hit against some people with loose morals that have no qualms in passing stuff around for free. Yes, sales increase, but up to the point where the ROM hits the torrents. You see, people outside our community have little to no personal or emotional investment in it, and may not think anything wrong of not paying the home-brewer for his effort.

 

If your intention is to sell to the collector's community, or the slightly larger vintage games enthusiast community (e.g., AtariAge), then I see very little risk. I wouldn't go as far as setting up digital distribution and sales, for that opens a whole new can-o'-worms; but I wouldn't mind treating the ROM as an accessory of the CIB package. I mean, if someone purchased my game CIB and asked for a copy of the ROM, why not?

 

In the interest of keeping people honest, I could add a serial number or the name of the recipient to the title screen. It's not really DRM, and will not really prevent anybody from copying the ROM, plus it would be rather simple to remove the marker; but it would require intent, which is a higher barrier than just ignorance or accident.

 

You can't stop the guy who's keen on pirating your game, so why even try? And more importantly, why punish the one who actually paid you?

 

Now, don't start expecting a flush of ROMs from me. I'm just expressing my opinion. Honestly, I don't see a problem with following through with this, but it is just an idea. I don't expect to push my games into the mainstream, all I want is for people to play them and enjoy them.

 

-dZ.

[+CyranoJ]

Well, we've been down this road.

 

When we released Beebris on CD we created a nice little utility that would inject the name and some other details of the purchaser. As each CD had to be burnt individually anyway on CDR, running them through this was not a huge deal, and if any did surface online, we'd know where they came from.

 

However, we only expected to sell around 10-15 copies. We eventually sold many, many more. From this game onwards, we have not used any watermarking.

 

We put our games online for download for free. Anyone can already get them, directly from us, for no charge. People still want to order the boxed collectors editions from us. From this, we deduce that the ones who are going to buy will buy even if we give it away.. and the ones who won't... well they can get it for free from us, so they don't have to 'pirate' anything. Everybody wins, and nobody has to go through individually watermarking stuff.

 

There is no 'vast amount of cash' to be made with these games. Copy protection and paranoia seem rather pointless, and belong back in the 80s or in the dystopia of the far future, not in a thriving home brew community.

 

[edit]

 

Also, we included on a second CD a binary of the game in .ROM and in .BIN form for loading into various emulators.

[+DZ-Jay]

Well, we've been down this road.

 

When we released Beebris on CD we created a nice little utility that would inject the name and some other details of the purchaser. As each CD had to be burnt individually anyway on CDR, running them through this was not a huge deal, and if any did surface online, we'd know where they came from.

 

However, we only expected to sell around 10-15 copies. We eventually sold many, many more. From this game onwards, we have not used any watermarking.

 

We put our games online for download for free. Anyone can already get them, directly from us, for no charge. People still want to order the boxed collectors editions from us. From this, we deduce that the ones who are going to buy will buy even if we give it away.. and the ones who won't... well they can get it for free from us, so they don't have to 'pirate' anything. Everybody wins, and nobody has to go through individually watermarking stuff.

 

There is no 'vast amount of cash' to be made with these games. Copy protection and paranoia seem rather pointless, and belong back in the 80s or in the dystopia of the far future, not in a thriving home brew community.

 

[edit]

 

Also, we included on a second CD a binary of the game in .ROM and in .BIN form for loading into various emulators.

 

Well said, and I agree.

[GroovyBee]

For the people that put games out on cart form upfront expense can be a major issue. Reclaimed cart shells can take a while to acquire or a new cart shell mould is prohibitively expensive (unless you have a group buy) or just be plain expensive (if you live in the wrong country). You might need a new PCB for the game and if you add in a printed box and instructions then that adds extra cost too. When you go down the route of needing things printed or made you have to think about minimum numbers to get whatever you need at a reasonable price and to find places that will handle "small fry" orders. I can see why such game publishers wouldn't want to put out a game ROM at the same time as a full blown production because they don't want to be left with excess inventory. If the game publisher has over speculated on the numbers that might sell then it may take some time to sell all the game stock too.

 

You can mitigate the costs by getting a good feel for numbers upfront by running a pre-order for the game. You might keep a pre-order list open for a few weeks or a month and then press ahead with getting the game out. Even in this scenario you'll have to get more things made than you need. For example if you have 71 people interested in your latest shmup called "Super Beans on Toast" whatever you get made (other than carts/CDs) won't be in multiples of the pre-order number.

 

It all depends how much fun and "business/hassle" you want to mix. Its fun to make games knowing that other people will be playing it around the world and giving you encouragement and feedback. Some people just want to stop at that and put out a binary, other people might contribute a cart/CD label or imaginary box/DVD/CD artwork so that everything is there if you want to make it yourself at home. If the game creators want to dip their toes in the "business" side of things they can take it a step further and get carts/CDs produced themselves or seek out a publisher in their retro gaming scene of choice. Other people want to recreate the experiences they had in their younger days and go mad with a box, instructions and "extras" for a back in the day style release.

 

At the end of the day nobody will get rich from niche machine homebrew markets (some people in some scenes *cough* jag *cough* like to think otherwise ). Its a hobby and its supposed to be fun.

[Games For Your Intellivision]

One of the problems that i have run into getting the boxes printed for Elektronite, is that the smaller printers consider the job to be too big and complicated, and the larger printers consider the job too small and unimportant.

 

I have been fortunate to find a printing company that takes me seriously and values my business. They are working with another printing company, who is actually doing the printing, who has been just as great. The president of the second printing company, actually met with me to answer my questions and find out exactly what I was looking for. And, this is on a small fry order.....nevertheless, it involves money in the thousands.....

 

I don't expect to get rich, but there is nothing wrong with serving the market in a professional way. I don't think that making games for classic systems is strictly for the hobbyists. Sure, there are classic video game authors who are just chuffed to be able to have their game played, but there are others who want to be able to fulfill their dream of making a living doing what they love.

[GroovyBee]

Sure, there are classic video game authors who are just chuffed to be able to have their game played, but there are others who want to be able to fulfill their dream of making a living doing what they love.

 

In an ideal world it would be brilliant to make money doing homebrew full time but in the real world its not going to happen. You might find this thread interesting where I asked the same question :-

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/169489-making-a-living-from-programming-homebrew/

[Games For Your Intellivision]

No one has done it yet that I am aware of but I think that it is possible. Especially if you branch out into other areas. There would need to be more of a market than 100 - 300 though. If there is only that number who would buy a new game for an old system....yeah, it will never be more than a hobbyist niche business. However, I believe there are more people out there. You just have to reach them.

[GroovyBee]

No one has done it yet that I am aware of but I think that it is possible. Especially if you branch out into other areas. There would need to be more of a market than 100 - 300 though. If there is only that number who would buy a new game for an old system....yeah, it will never be more than a hobbyist niche business. However, I believe there are more people out there. You just have to reach them.

 

I agree that there are more people "out there" but not all of them will buy a new homebrew game in cart form. Look at the recent Boulderdash release for the 2600. Up to a maximum of 250 can be made and sold (and then that is it) and it still hasn't sold out (as far as I'm aware). You would think that every man and his dog would know about the Boulderdash franchise and therefore it'd be a sell out. Unfortunately between 50 to 300 copies sold are pretty much the limits for a homebrew game.

[+DZ-Jay]

One of the problems that i have run into getting the boxes printed for Elektronite, is that the smaller printers consider the job to be too big and complicated, and the larger printers consider the job too small and unimportant.

 

I have been fortunate to find a printing company that takes me seriously and values my business. They are working with another printing company, who is actually doing the printing, who has been just as great. The president of the second printing company, actually met with me to answer my questions and find out exactly what I was looking for. And, this is on a small fry order.....nevertheless, it involves money in the thousands.....

 

I don't expect to get rich, but there is nothing wrong with serving the market in a professional way. I don't think that making games for classic systems is strictly for the hobbyists. Sure, there are classic video game authors who are just chuffed to be able to have their game played, but there are others who want to be able to fulfill their dream of making a living doing what they love.

 

There is nothing wrong with trying to make a business out of serving the market. And the dream of making a living doing what you love is a noble one. However I'm afraid it may be tilting at windmills.

 

The vintage computer games market is indeed the domain of hobbyists and collectors, and as such, a niche one. This is a fact. Once in a while a trend may arise, but these go in and out of fashion, as to be deemed mere fads (like the console-in-a-chip, direct-to-TV games that started coming out several years ago).

 

It's not that some of us lack vision or ambition, as you seem to suggest; it's more that we recognize the limitations of that niche, and work our passions into a more balanced lifestyle. Ultimately, I just like making games, and I enjoy knowing that people play them. I would love to earn my living making them, but I recognize that the sheer volume required in creation, production, and publication efforts for this is more than I believe is attainable, or worth it. I then rather incorporate this as part of my overall lifestyle, which involves many other interests. Moreover, such lifestyle is rather indulgent, afforded by my chosen profession and occupation, and treating game creation as a "hobby" allows me to have both.

 

Make no mistake, home-brewed games are every bit the professional item as one developed and produced by a corporate-funded, larger-scale operation. I know my games will be. Yet, they are still, in every sense of the word, brewed at home; and more importantly, a labour of love.

 

I'm not suggesting that your endeavor is futile, though I do suggest it is hard.

 

But, to each his own, as they say.

 

-dZ.

Edited June 25, 2012 by DZ-Jay

[Games For Your Intellivision]

I didn't say anyone lacked ambition or vision. I just think that when you say that the market is a "niche one, and that's a fact" your idea of niche might be more limited than my idea of niche.

 

For example, my whole premise for starting my business was based on these facts.

 

It has been demonstrated that there is a market for at least 300 copies of a new Intellivision game that almost nobody knows exists.

There were 3 million Intellivision systems sold. Of those 3 million, there HAS to be at least 30,000 working machines with owners who still use them. Heck, I know about 4 people who love playing Baseball on their Intellivision when they get together with friends for a few beers.

Of those possibly 30,000 or more active units, I am sure there are more than 300 people who will buy a new Intellivision game. How many? Nobody knows. That is what we are going to find out.

 

Yes, it is only a gut feeling. But the last time I wanted to go into business, my friend (who was going to invest the money and start it with me) thought that opening our city's first internet provider was too risky, because I had nothing to back up my 'gut feeling' that 'the internet is going to be the next BIG thing'.

 

I don't want to get into our long term plans, but simply publishing a few classic games isn't our whole plan.

[+Gemintronic]

Maybe sell it wrapped up in a single game emulator for PC and mobile. I suggested something similar for the 2600 side to Stephen of Stella fame. Slightly tweak an existing emulator to accept a keyfile and encrypted ROM. Decrypt the ROM using the keyfile and fire up the emulation.

[GroovyBee]

It has been demonstrated that there is a market for at least 300 copies of a new Intellivision game that almost nobody knows exists.

There were 3 million Intellivision systems sold. Of those 3 million, there HAS to be at least 30,000 working machines with owners who still use them. Heck, I know about 4 people who love playing Baseball on their Intellivision when they get together with friends for a few beers.

Of those possibly 30,000 or more active units, I am sure there are more than 300 people who will buy a new Intellivision game. How many? Nobody knows. That is what we are going to find out.

 

The old 1% rule of the market being "interested" in your product doesn't really apply to retro gaming on the real deal hardware. Again, going back to Boulderdash it can't sell 250 cart copies (to date) yet there were 10 times as many 2600s sold (30 million or so) than there were Intellivisions. I suspect that a new homebrew NES game would sell less that 300 carts too and there were over 60+ million NES units on the market. However, I admit that I haven't followed the latest homebrews on the NES scene.

 

When you get into console emulation on different platforms and release "best ofs" and so on you widen your audience demographic considerably. In that format you are making the games much more accessible and much easier to play (using modern controllers).

[vprette]

It has been demonstrated that there is a market for at least 300 copies of a new Intellivision game that almost nobody knows exists.

There were 3 million Intellivision systems sold. Of those 3 million, there HAS to be at least 30,000 working machines with owners who still use them. Heck, I know about 4 people who love playing Baseball on their Intellivision when they get together with friends for a few beers.

Of those possibly 30,000 or more active units, I am sure there are more than 300 people who will buy a new Intellivision game. How many? Nobody knows. That is what we are going to find out.

 

The old 1% rule of the market being "interested" in your product doesn't really apply to retro gaming on the real deal hardware. Again, going back to Boulderdash it can't sell 250 cart copies (to date) yet there were 10 times as many 2600s sold (30 million or so) than there were Intellivisions. I suspect that a new homebrew NES game would sell less that 300 carts too and there were over 60+ million NES units on the market. However, I admit that I haven't followed the latest homebrews on the NES scene.

 

When you get into console emulation on different platforms and release "best ofs" and so on you widen your audience demographic considerably. In that format you are making the games much more accessible and much easier to play (using modern controllers).

 

you miss to consider the huge availability of homebrews for vcs2600 at any prices..... people cannot buy everything, nad boulderdash is the most esxpensive homebrew around...

said so.... my personal opinion is that 300 is the target reachable for any intv homebrew... and only good games, with a bit of promotion that we are doing in revival or similar can do better, around 500 for sure... those numbers can be obtained by involving casul players that own intv but are not collectors, and those are difficult to reach beacuse of the lack of successfull retrogaming web sites...

[GroovyBee]

you miss to consider the huge availability of homebrews for vcs2600 at any prices..... people cannot buy everything, nad boulderdash is the most esxpensive homebrew around...

 

Its true that the 2600 has quite an active development community and only a few people buy every single release. But everybody has different tastes so some games will sell more than others.

 

said so.... my personal opinion is that 300 is the target reachable for any intv homebrew... and only good games, with a bit of promotion that we are doing in revival or similar can do better, around 500 for sure... those numbers can be obtained by involving casul players that own intv but are not collectors, and those are difficult to reach beacuse of the lack of successfull retrogaming web sites...

 

I really wish you luck in selling 500 copies of every single Intellivision game that you produce. Personally I don't think its achievable unless its an arcade classic game (or very close in style to one) and even then I'd say closer to 300 would be an optimistic number. The arcade classics always sell more copies on any retro platform because people are familiar with the title and therefore have a much stronger connection to it. For an original Inty game I'd expect around 150 copies to sell. The numbers are just my opinion and I'll be gladly proven wrong if anybody wants to divulge cart sales.

[BillyHW]

I didn't say anyone lacked ambition or vision. I just think that when you say that the market is a "niche one, and that's a fact" your idea of niche might be more limited than my idea of niche.

 

For example, my whole premise for starting my business was based on these facts.

 

It has been demonstrated that there is a market for at least 300 copies of a new Intellivision game that almost nobody knows exists.

There were 3 million Intellivision systems sold. Of those 3 million, there HAS to be at least 30,000 working machines with owners who still use them. Heck, I know about 4 people who love playing Baseball on their Intellivision when they get together with friends for a few beers.

Of those possibly 30,000 or more active units, I am sure there are more than 300 people who will buy a new Intellivision game. How many? Nobody knows. That is what we are going to find out.

 

Yes, it is only a gut feeling. But the last time I wanted to go into business, my friend (who was going to invest the money and start it with me) thought that opening our city's first internet provider was too risky, because I had nothing to back up my 'gut feeling' that 'the internet is going to be the next BIG thing'.

 

I don't want to get into our long term plans, but simply publishing a few classic games isn't our whole plan.

 

Why does there have to be 30,000 working machines still in use? How do you know this? Where does this 1% rule come from?

Edited June 25, 2012 by BillyHW

[cparsley]

I'd consider creating homebrew a more valuable use of a hobby (as it will usually bring enjoyment, not have a downside, like say drinking, and will net you a few bucks in the end ( so a positive outcome). But to retire to do full-time, not highly likely.)

[sqoon]

Bring the prices down and more homebrews will sell. $50-$80 is serious asking money for many. Get it down around $30 and more will sell. The global economy remains tight.

[Emehr]

1. Make a special limited edition run with box, manual, the works. Pre-order lists will give a general idea of demand.

2. When those supplies are exhausted, switch to cart-only unlimited production.

3. Release the binary at this time to get people playing the game. This will promote more sales of the cart-only release.

 

I think the key is releasing the binary after the initial run of carts is sold. Never releasing a binary is a great way to get less people playing your game and potentially purchasing a cart. Release a demo binary if releasing the whole shebang is a scary thought. I speak for myself but I will rarely buy a homebrew if I can't play it first to get a general feel for it. I did it once and that was for a game by a programmer with a proven track record.

 

I really don't want to see this community resort to selling ROMs. That's just a recipe for disaster.